a question for Calvinists

As Ken pointed out - their destruction is everlasting no matter which way you look at it.

But their life is not "everlastinng" if you pick the view that Ken suggests may be the solution - and in this case - I agree with Ken.

(That is right, Bob agrees with Ken on some point on this message board.)

We often find fellow Christians reading the text with tradition and preconceived ideas instead of letting the text speak for itself - hence "everlasting destruction" is reworked in our minds as "everlasting life - in a process of being destroyed but never quite getting destroyed or consumed or burned up".

As many good evangelists have said "you get Everlasting Eternal Life - either in Heaven or in Hell".

Once we read "eternal destruction" through that "lense" it comes out as "eternal life of living through the process of being destroyed - but not ever reaching that point of complete destruction". It turns "eternal destruction" into "Eternal NOT Destruction". Or it engages in the doublespeak of saying "Destruction is in the NOT destruction".

But instead of that - the Bible is correct in Rev 14 - we ARE all there and the lost DO all suffer "in our presence" -- "eternal destruction". That is very explicit in the text. They are not suffering "away from our presence" according to Rev 14:10.

And no other text says they "Suffer Away from the presence of the saints". The Bible is in complete unity on this point.

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 16, 2002, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

IN the parable of Luke 16, does Abraham appear to be ignorant of what the rich man is suffering? The Bible never presents the view that although the event takes place in the Presence of the saints they are oblivious to events takinig place in their presence.

And you are right in Rev 21 - AFTER - the event of the Great white throne judgment and the fire and brimstone of Rev 20 - Then - and only Then do we see the statement you reference "He shall Wipe away every tear" 21:4.

You are correct that the Law of Love (Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18) is the principle of God's kingdom - Love for God and Love for our fellow humans - which turns out to be Love for ALL (not an arbitrarily select few that we pick out).

God loves EVEN our loved ones in the fire and brimstone and SO do we.

We love them with the 1Cor 13 Love "That hopes all things, believes all things... never takes into account a wrong suffered..".

Our ability to embrace that heavenly principle WITHOUT our present sinful nature - will far outstrip our current ability. We will be MORE loving of even our Precious children - not LESS.

The Bible never says that DURING that time while the lost suffer in our presence - while our own loved ones burn in agony - literally - in our literal presence -- that we will be 'happy'. But AFTER that event - in Rev 21 we do see Christ "Wipe away every tear".

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 16, 2002, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Here it is --

And that principle "of the God that never changes" remains true EVEN in the fires of Rev 14:10-11 where they are burned "IN our Presence".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Gulp.

 

Hey, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Bob, we love you brother!

Rev. G

 

As I say, I was somewhat surprised to find that Ken and I were viewing that aspect of the punishement of the wicked in the same way.

It must be "a sign"

 

That was my point exactly. Just because one makes a choice doesn't mean one has the freedom to choose any alternative.

Again, this is true but irrelevant to your point. Free will doesn't just mean making decisions. It means making any decision, where one is just as free to choose one alternative as another.

So you still haven't gotten within light years of showing that love necessitates free will. Indeed, your story demonstrates that it doesn't logically necessitate free will at all:

So you can see that sometimes someone makes a choice for you. A decision is made, but you didn't make it of your own free will.

 

Every waking hour of our individual day, we make choices based upon our knowledge and the influence of the persuasions of our families, friends and acquaintences.

I cannot choose for you and you cannot choose for me!

I make my mistakes, and you yours.

I cannot live your life nor can you live mine.

The only time we have commonality between us is when we believe the same thing about the same thing.

My faith does not save you, nor can your faith save me. Faith is completely individual, but is often held commonly between us.

It is said there are 6 Billion souls living on the earth today, therefore there are 6 Billion individuals making individual choices every minute of the day. It is estimated there are 1 Billion Christians in the World, therefore there are 1 Billion who have belief in one object of faith, but there are 1 Billion who each had to choose to have faith in that one object of faith. 1 out of six may be impressive, and they could be seen as "the elect", because they chose to receive the Word of God and believe.

It remains the individual's choice regarding belief in Jesus or non belief.

Neither Calvin nor Armenius had the insight to understand that concept, and it has made of each of you, a factionary Christian.

My suggestion is that you trust neither of them, but lean on the words of Jesus alone for your salvation.

 

These are not the only things that influence our decisions every day. Above everything else, our spiritual nature plays a part in that process.

Yelsew, if neither Calvin nor Arminius had the insight to understand that concept, what makes you believe that you have it? Are you above them? You claim that "we" on here have become "factionary Christians" because we are trusting them. Actually, I those of us on here are not looking to these men, we are coming to the words of Jesus and the Apostles and wrestling through them. We are not looking to anyone for salvation other than Christ, and Him alone.

Rev. G

 

Yelsew,
You write:
My suggestion is that you trust neither of them, but lean on the words of Jesus alone for your salvation.

Your post reveals that you have a slight misunderstanding in regards to how Christians view Calvin. We respect and appreciate John Calvin as we respect and appreciate our own pastors. I'm sure you feel the same way of the eldership that oversee's the health of your soul? We do not, however, look to these individuals in the way we trust in Christ.

Do you really believe that there are Calvinists who trust in John Calvin for salvation?

[ November 16, 2002, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: Scott_Bushey ]

 

No, but I believe there are Calvinists as well as Armenians who have and hold distorted views of Christianity, the Christian Community, the Body of Christ, and the Bride of Christ because of the writings of their respective namesakes. Paul spoke against this clearly when he spoke of some being of Apollos and some of Paul. He said that he would rather they abandon that practice and concentrate on being "of Jesus". I agree!

 

Yelsew writes:
No, but I believe there are Calvinists as well as Armenians who have and hold distorted views of Christianity.......

I will only comment for the reformed, i.e. the Calvinist.
This may be your consensus, but it is not accurate.

Do me a favor, can you volunteer any names of historical Calvinists? I'm just curious if you are aware of whom you've "lumped" into this category, *distorted view of Christianity*.

 

The posts on this BBS Forum are sufficient for one to form the opinion that I have espoused.

The 'who' does not matter, it is the 'what' that I'm addressing. So, If your beliefs fall into the 'what' catagory, then my expressed opinion fits you.

 

God created all things according to His own good pleasure. Creation manifests the handiwork of God. God did not create man to fill some void within Himself. God created man upright, but man sought many inventions (Eccles. 7:29). God will ultimately receive the glory due unto him by saving a people by His amazing grace and punishing the wicked with everlasting destruction for the glory of His justice. With reference to God, man is reputed as nothing, and God does according to His will in all things (Dan. 4:35). We have not been granted the right to question God in anything He does.

 

You're right Primitive, however, God sets the options before us for us and leaves the choice up to us.

 

Actually, it says "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you." This isn't a command, it's a promise. A very reassuring one, at that. I wish I could keep it in mind at all times.

Regardless, although I shouldn't speak for PB, I suspect he was saying that we are in no position to question God's motives for doing anything, especially with respect to whom He chooses. And that is perfectly Biblical.

I happen to believe that we are guilty of this very offense when we make outrageous statements like, "A loving God would never do this or that." Who are we to say what a loving God would do?