A question on election and choice

The position you are describing is actually the "Arminian" position.

Rev. G

 

Not so Rev. G. You and i both know that anything predestined by God will come to pass. God will not change it, nor will he allow men nor angels to change it.

[ October 23, 2002, 12:50 AM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

There is no choice in predestination. Man sinned, God simply offered salvation to all. Some accepted God's offer through faith, some decided to do things their own way.

 

Chappie:

I'm not mistaken. What our sister described is the position of "Arminianism." There is a retention of the word "predestination," but it all hinges on foreknowledge and humanity's choices.

Having said that, since you are so dead set against predestination, what do you do with Ephesians 1, which mentions it frequently?

All Christians believe in some sort of predestination and election, they have to, because those things are taught in the Bible. The question is, WHAT is believed about these doctrines?

Rev. G

 

Untill they sinned, they were in paradise. God does not tell us what would have happened had Adam not sinned.

Predestination as ascribed in the bible deals with sin afterthe fact...

 

First we need to establish that Paul is speaking to those that can listen from a position of having been saved already. How can we scripturally do that. For that, let’s go back to the beginning of chapter 8:

Rom 8:1
1 There is therefore now no condemnation “to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit”.

To them that are in Christ Jesus; a euphemism for one that is saved. Shall we proceed to verse 4?

Rom 8:4
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (KJV)

Who are the “us”? Those that are identified in verse 1. In verse 5 through 13, Paul speaks to those that are saved concerning those that are not saved.

Rom 8:5-13
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

In verse 14, the focus shifts back to the condition of those that are saved. Verse 14 through 27 deal with the blessings belonging to those that are saved.

Rom 8:14-28
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Now, consider that the focus has not changed, it is the blessings of believers that are being discussed. So we know that Paul is still addressing the blessings of saved individuals as we proceed into verse 28:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God. Calvinism acknowledges that only those that are saved love Our Lord. So no one should have a problem admitting that these passages are directed to those that are saved: It is directed to them who are the called according to his purpose. We now have to seek and be careful to understand what that purpose is.

Rom 8:29-31
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

For whom he did foreknow: Foreknow, a euphemism for a personal relationship. Adam “Knew Eve”, and little Cain was born. For whom he did Foreknow/have a personal relationship with; he also did predestinate. What event predestinated? Does it say salvation? It says that those that he has a personal relationship with are predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son.

PREDESTINATED TO BE CONFORMED INTO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON”. These words are spoken to and applicable to those that are saved. They were already saved, that we have already establish beyond a scriptural doubt .

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Moreover/in addition to what has already been said; whom he did predestinate (to be conformed into the image of his son) them he also called. Called to live separated and holy lives. And whom he called, them he also justified. (Declared to be holy) And those that he declared to be holy, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Anybody got any objections. Won’t do you any good, If God be for us, who can stand against us?

Now, on to Ephesians.

Eph 1:3-13
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ: Our “Lord” Jesus Christ establishes submission, something that a totally depraved person will not do. Establishes the existence of salvation.

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

According as he hath chosen “us” in him before the foundations of the world. Chosen “us” in him that we may be without blame before him in love. He has chosen before the foundations of the world that we (Us) should be holy and without blame as we stand before him in love.

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Having determined that we should be adopted as children, according to the good pleasure of his will. What is the good pleasure of his will? That we should be adopted as children.

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

He did this to the praise and glory of his grace. For it is within his Grace that he made us acceptable and beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

“In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins”, our forgiveness comes through Christ according to the riches of his grace.

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

What is that good pleasure that he has purposed (decided) all by himself
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

What is that purpose, the answer is given in Romans, it is that Christ might be the first born of many sons: And;
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

NOTHING ABOUT EFFICACIOUS GRACE, IRRESISTIBLE GRACE, OR SALVATIONAL PREDESTINATION. WHAT IS PREDESTINATED? THAT WE SHALL BE CONFORMED INTO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON THAT HE MIGHT BE THE FIRSTBORN OF MANY SONS TO THE PRAISE AND GLORY OF CHRIST ACCORDING TO THE GOOD PLEASURE OF HIS WILL…..

[ October 23, 2002, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

No. I believe that God has elected individuals for salvation, Chappie does not believe this. I think he is wrong, he thinks I am wrong.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ October 25, 2002, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

This speaks very loudly.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

Chappie is right Gina in his explination of the scripture..

Predestination NEVER deals with an unsavedperson in scripture it ALWAYS is in reference to someone Already saved. same with election..Noone is elected until they are in Christ unless of Course your the Nation of Israel who are the REAL Chosen/elect people of God. Even they weren't predestined in eternity.



You can't be predestinated to be conformed to Christs image unless your already saved. Noone is called to live seprate lives unless they are already saved.. this entire passage is dealing with the Already saved. not a sinner who isn't saved.

Second Jesus said he would Call ALL men so really you have to reach way down to get around all this.

 

Actually, Jesus didn't say that. I find no verse where Jesus said, "I call all men." In fact, He placed a limit on whom He said He would call -

(Mat 9:11-13 NKJV) And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His disciples, "Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?" {12} When Jesus heard that, He said to them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. {13} "But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."

Clearly, "the righteous" in this verse refers to those who are righteous in their own eyes like these Pharisees were.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ October 25, 2002, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

Good point Chrys.

So who did God "foreknow"? Is His foreknowledge limited to "just believers" if so - what of the unbelievers that will one day believe?

And does He foreknow anyone else?

Notice that there is no place in scripture where "Foreknow" means "have a pre-relationship with someone". Some "need" to inject that into this text - but it has no support in scripture.

What is more apparent - is that God in fact "Foreknows" all things - all mankind - all past, present and future.


John 12:32 says that Christ deliberately draws "all mankind" unto Himself.


Sometimes the defensive position of Calvinism tries to limit the above such that the widest applicaiton is "all KINDS of mankind". Meaning that believers come from all KINDS of mankind and 'ALL MANKIND" is simply speaking of believers as "ALL KINDS of mankind" - even though "KINDS" has to be "INSERTED" to get that point.

IN 1 Tim 4:10 we find this


"God is the Savior of ALL mankind ESPECIALLY of Believers".


Now lets continue with the practice of inserting words into scripture to defend Calvinism and it becomes "God is the Savior of ALL KINDS of mankind especially of believers". That is problematic since the 'especially' clause is clearly a 'subset' of the larger group "ALL mankind" in the way the sentence is strucutre.

So the only reasonable conclusion is tha "all mankind" IS in fact that "larger set" - the superset, and "especially of believers" is the subset.

In Christ,

Bob

[ October 25, 2002, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

(Romans 8:29 NASB)For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

"foreknew" is not referring to simple knowledge. God knows all people(saved and unsaved) and all events. What this means is to forelove or to love beforehand. When the Bible says that Adam knew his wife Eve it is not talking about his knowledge of her existence or her actions, but his intimate love for her.

Furthermore, Romans 8:29 does not say "what" God foreknew(or foreloved) but "whom" God foreknew(or foreloved).

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

This is the Definition Of Forknowledge:
to have previous knowledge of : know beforehand especially by paranormal means or by revelation

Okay first off we can look at this verse:

Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miricles which he did.

But, Jesus did not commit himself unto them because he knew ALL MEN.

According to this passage Christ Knew all men, not just the elect..

but not only did the Lord "Know" ALL Men.. he did did not "Know" the "elect" until their conversion

Howbeit then when ye Knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. But NOW, AFTER that ye have known God, Or rather are known of God, how turn ye againto the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? ( gal.4:8,9)

God Could not have had an eternal "loving relationship" with the "elect" If he never Knew them.

And how about this thought?

I say then hath God Cast away his people? God Forbid. For I also am an israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Bejamin. God Hath not cast away his people which he forknew....."(Rom 11:1-2)

His people is a reference to the Nation of Israel.. but according to the second verse God forknew the Whole nation of Israel. And the relationship God had with the nation didn't guarantee the salvation of everyone in israel or all the Jews in the old testament would have been saved and they weren't.

So see your definition won't work ken.

 

You're right ken..my mistake. i did say that wrong..thanks for pointing that out to me.

Actually what i meantto say was jesus said "An dI, If I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to me. And that is still all men and NOT the elect.

Yes Your part right but jesus said he came to call sinners, to repentance in that same statement..and though the pharisees were self rightous in their own eyes ..The Bible still stands

"there is No Difference: For all have sinned"
(rom 3:22-23) And Jesus just told you he came to call everyone (sinners) to repentance.

 

You define a Biblical term using Webster's? Please look it up in a lexicon.

Did God just know beforehand that Israel would be His people, or did God determine that they would be His people? (Your Romans verse)

Did God just know beforehand that Christ would be the Redeemer, or did God determine that Christ would be the redeemer? (1 Peter 1:20)

Did God just know beforehand that Christ would be crucified, or was it part of what God determined would happen. (Acts 2:23)

"Foreknowledge" as used in scripture often carries with it the idea of not just knowing ahead that something will happen, but of determining it will happen. Look it up in a lexicon.

[ October 25, 2002, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

If you said that predestination only refers to the saved, I would agree with you. And that is what the scripture says. But you are interjecting the word "already," which is to say that nobody is predestined until they choose to be saved. That is self-contradictory. "I'm going to predestine this person to be saved after they decide that they choose salvation?"

Main Entry: 1 elect
Pronunciation: i-'lekt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin electus, past participle of eligere to select, from e- + legere to choose -- more at LEGEND
Date: 15th century
1 : carefully selected : CHOSEN
2 : chosen for salvation through divine mercy
3 a : chosen for office or position but not yet installed <the president-elect> b : chosen for marriage at some future time <the bride-elect>

Election is to be chosen, not for the elect to choose. Otherwise I'd run for president and declare myself the winner without having to get any votes.