A question that I hope to get an answer for

One of the problems is that many people dont' know what "total depravity" is. Many define "total depravity" as the complete inability of man to do anything good. This is not biblically supportable. Rather, the definition of "total depravity" is the inability of man to do anything perfect according to God's plan. This is biblically supportable.

 

Total Depravity tells me that when Adam sinned he being the federal head and representative of ALL mankind... When he sinned and ate of the forbidden fruit... His entire being was polluted... His flesh... His spirit the whole man Adam... Ergo we also are being from his loins... If not there is no reason for Jesus Christ as there is some good in man whereas the scriptures state plainly there is NOT!... He is SIN!... Thru and thru!... And must have a redeemer to satisfy the God he sinned against... Again if we have the ability to say yea or nay where is grace and can we call it that if it depends on us instead of Christ!... David says... I was shapen in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me!... I'm sure there are other brethren that can add to these verses to show that Total Depravity is not the exception but the rule... And God made the rules!... Brother Glen

 

Man is born with a cursed spirit within us.

it is totaly unacceptable before Gods holiness.

If man is to be acceptable before God. Man needs to obtain a different spirit other than the one he was born with. one that is equal in righteousness and holiness with God.

mans soul must be joined with Jesus Christ Spirit to be acceptable.

by faith the believer accepts the truth that mans cursed and depraved spirit is seperated from mans soul and body, judged and thrown into death. that the believers soul is joined with a new completely different and righteous spirit of Jesus Christ and returned into the believers body of flesh and bones.

Mans cursed spirit is totally depraved of God.


take for example this parable.

Luk 5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was [taken] out of the new agreeth not with the old.
Luk 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
Luk 5:39 No man also having drunk old [wine] straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

whereas the bottle is the spirit and the wine is knowledge and nature of God.

that the old cannot be joined with the new. the old must be discarded. it is useless and unusable.

the old is totally depraved

 

Yelsew,

First, man does not know any good or evil as expressed by God. man has the written law of God, but can only accept this through their carnal understanding. which eliminates any knowledge that the carnal mind cannot comprehend or use in their selfish lives. which is all of the law.
cursed man will never understand God. they can only imagine what he is like in their darkened and corrupted imaginations.

Why?

there are only two types of spirits. Righteous and unrighteous. sinless or containing sin.

In 1 John there is mentioned an identification of the spiritual enemy of God... antichrist.

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

("now already in the world", try BEEN IN the world from the first day of creation)

this is the spirit that contains sin. the one that cursed adam introduced to mankind and all cursed men are identified with. the spirit that all mankind is born with. the one containing sin.

the antichrist spirit is totally depraved of God and the other containing Christ spirit the fullness of God.

christ or antichrist. both are spiritually opposite from each other.

isnt that easy to accept.

so here's the trick. all civilization is born with the antichrist spirit. this spirit must be judged in the individual and replaced with the righteous spirit of Christ so that the individual can be accepted righteous before God the Father.

but lets complicate this.. this antichrist spirit can be identified further in 3 ways.
the world, flesh and devil. or lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and pride of life..

(John calls them. antichrist, false prophet and devil)

can we say for 4000 years that the spirit of Christ on planet earth was non existant in man?. yep..

now yelsew, one can easily find the supporting scriptures concerning the antichrist spirit.

God only has ONE enemy, or spirit archtype.

Me2

 

http://www.swordofthelord.com/Archives/0108tul.htm baker's theology page

he's a "free willer".

 

I'm so glad you found direction wherever it leads you in your belief... I'm glad I have the belief I have and share it with others... They want to believe it fine... If they don't fine!... As you have other questions on your journey in this life NEVER be afraid to seek counsel even though you may disagree with the answers you receive... Those who do not ask do not grow in the Lord... God bless you in your journey... Brother Glen

 

you are wrong here, Jesus said no one is good except God. humanly speaking a person may call another person good in some respects, but man is not righteous. depravity and being a slave to sin is the problem and Christ is the answer. you need to understand some of these fundamentals and believe the gospel.

 

ILUVLIGHT,

I was just being courteous to find Mr. Bakers opinions and allow others to make their own determinations.

I am a strong believer in Total Depravity of Man and the Total Sovereignty of God.

unlike Mr. Baker opinions.

Me2

 

TO ILUVLIGHT;
I'm sorry to read that you no longer believe in ANY of the position that has become known as TULIP. It is the pure gospel. I was an -- uhh arminian at one point because I didn't understand that REGENERATION proceeds faith.
You, as far as I am concerned, have to accept all 5 points of "TULIP" or none of the points. To be a "4"point is to live in confusion -- and if I may humbly submit -- to live in error. At least that is the way I see it.

 

You do not have ot believe in all five points. Calvinism turns on believing in teh sovereingty of God in salvation, whether is is initiated and completed solely of God, or whether man contributes. The specific number of points is not necessarily teh issue. This is often confused by people who have not clearly thought through all the issues and thus do not understand that the system does not hinge on the humber of points, but rather the belief in controlling sovereignty.

 

Iluvlight and Pastor Larry:
Iluvlight I understand and respect your search for the truth. You make the statement that doctrine is not that important, but what is important is what the Lord wants. I guess I would say that is backwards. The way to KNOW what the Lord wants, is to study His revealed word. And that is what DOCTRINE is all about.
Pastor Larry: I really do believe that one, to be consistent, has to believe and understand ALL 5 points, or one will be in CONFUSION.
Of course God is Sovereign and that is the main point. However, if salvation depends on man's choice, then man's choice is sovereign and not God. These points have been debated over and over again so we don't need to go over it again.
Pastor Larry, have you heard of George N.H. Peters "The Theocratic Kingdom.?" The 3-vol set was written in the 1800s by a Lutheran Minister. It is the most detailed, best work on the subject of dispensationalism that I have every read. What a brilliant work!!!

 

Yelsew:
To a certain degree doctrine does have one's slant. But are you saying that the Apostolic teachings, for example from Paul, is just his "slant?"
Personally, I believe that there is biblical doctrine revealed to us through the scriptures. That doctrine is objective and does not depend on one's personal "slant" or worse yet, one's subjective opinion.
The inspired words of scripture were brought to us in writing so one can look objectively at what is written and CONFORM one's theology to that REVEALED WORD.
In my experience, most people just can't stand the idea that their salvation comes from God's good pleasure, and they have NOTHING to to with it.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that their are objective standards, and DOCTRINE that is either true or false. Salvation either depends on God Alone, or it depends on man's free choice. Those are contradictory positions. Both can't be true and the same time. One is true, one is false.

Creeds, while very helpful, are uninspired men's opinions. Creeds can be wrong.The scriptures are inspired and teach ABSOLUTE DOCTRINE.
I have a very, very high opinion of scripture, and a very long opinion of most men's OPINIONS. Of course we can learn from the great man of God like Luther, Calvin, Knox, Spurgeon, John Owens, Arthur Pink, and on and on. But every position in theology must not be in conflict with scripture, otherwise it has to be disgarded.
How can someone read the 10th chapter of John, or Eph, chapters 1 and 2 and think that THEY have something to do with their own salvation? God doesn't "cooperate" with a dead, fallen, depraved, God-hating sinner to see if that person will "accept" the work of the Atonement. In fact, like Lydia in, I believe Acts. 16:14, a person can't even savingly hear the gospel unless their heart and mind is OPENED so they can.
Peace
Don Fahrenkrug