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Featured A Rational Look at Baptism in the Scriptures of Truth

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by JD731, Sep 21, 2021.

  1. JD731

    JD731 Active Member

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    I have a question about baptism. Anyone is welcome to answer it and discuss it, though I am not asking it for information, but to provoke thought.

    All 12 of the apostles of Jesus Christ were baptized by the disciples of John the Baptist. They were followers of Jesus Christ and some had even been disciples of John. Most of them were justified believers and verbalized their faith that Jesus Christ was and is the Son of God.This is all that was required of believers in the days of Christ before his crucifixion and resurrection. The reason for what John wrote of the pre-cross Jesus in his gospel account was stated succinctly by him in the following context. I will quote a couple verses.

    John 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
    31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

    Now, the bible records the reaction to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ by these mostly justified apostles in all 4 gospel accounts as knowing nothing about the crucifixion and resurrection before it happened and then not believing it after it occurred, even when it was reported to them by eye witnesses of the resurrected Christ.

    My question.

    Why was it that these men, who are the foundational preachers of the gospel of Christ, which is defined in 1 Cor 15:1-4 as his death burial and resurrection, charged by Jesus Christ to preach this gospel from his ascension to heaven onward in the following words?

    Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
    16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    Why then are they to preach his gospel that the hearers are to believe and be baptized in water to be saved when there is no record that any of the preachers were ever baptized in water, post resurrection?

    I do not know where this discussion will go from here, if anywhere, but if it progresses I pray that the Lord Jesus Christ will be exalted and glorified and that believers in him will be edified and instructed by it.
     
  2. JD731

    JD731 Active Member

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    While some may be thinking about the question in my op, I will post some thoughts that I have had from the scriptures on the subject of baptism. It seems to me that God baptizes in water every physical thing he creates.

    But first, considering baptism and the nation of Israel and the trinitarian structure that God has established.

    As is often the case God does things in threes. This is true with the baptism of his people and nation, Israel. When they were first born in Egypt as a nation at the first Passover, when the Lamb was slain and the blood applied on each home as a type of the deliverance of God through the Lamb, he called this the beginning of months for Israel and three days later he baptized the nation in the Red Sea.

    The national baptism in connection to Jehovah

    1 Cor 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
    2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
    3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
    4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

    The national baptism in connection to Jesus
    Mat 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
    6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

    16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
    17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    The national baptism in connection with the Holy Ghost.
    Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
    37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

    Each baptism is a beginning in relation to this nation.

    Ex 12;2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.

    Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
    2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
    3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
    4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
    5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

    15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
    16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
    17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
    18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

    Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
    (he is the beginning of the church at his resurrection when he was the first born from the dead - see Psa 2)

    Baptism is not a part of salvation but it pictures the reality of the cleansing from sin when the repentant sinner dies to himself and his sins are washed away so that the Spirit may now indwell him, giving him the life of God inside him and making him a new creature. We get that here.

    Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
    5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
    6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

    Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

    So, Israel has been baptized 3 times in water, once each by the 3 members of the Godhead.
     
  3. JD731

    JD731 Active Member

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    Since no one seems to be interested in the question of my op, I will answer it myself after speaking of baptism a while.

    1 Peter 3:21
    The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    Baptism is a figure of salvation according to the above. God illustrates all his wonderful spiritual truths by things in the physical realm that one can observe or is aware of.

    What is said before verse 21 is intended to teach us a doctrinal truth that baptism in water illustrates. What is it?

    1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
    19 By which (the Spirit) also he (Christ) went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
    20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited (for them to repent) in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein (the ark) few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
    21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

    Jesus Christ was not physically present during the preaching during the120 years before the flood while Noah built the ark but preached through men such as Enoch who gave voice to the warnings of God of what was to come and giving them space to repent. (of course they did not repent)..

    Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
    15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

    How would Enoch have known any of these things lest the Spirit enlightened his mind about them?

    The point is here that the same water that saved Noah and his family destroyed the unrepentant sinners that they were immersed in. There is so much here in the Noah days that typifies this age we are in now that it cannot be dealt with in a single post. The characteristic of that time is identical with the characteristics of this age and the results are the same. One should give some serious thought to these figures.

    2 Peter 3:15
    And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you.

    Isaiah 26:21
    For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

    One thing these types prove to us is the providence of God in history and that his plan of redemption and how he will accomplish it has never changed in the 6000 years that he has been working it out.
     
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    By the disciples of John the baptist but not by John, based on what? Now Jesus' disciples baptized more disciples than John the Baptist per John 4:1-2.
     
  5. JD731

    JD731 Active Member

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    The answer to your question involves simply comparing scripture with scripture and applying simple logic and reasoning. No commentary will be needed when you see it in biblical print.

    John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he (Jesus) tarried with them, and baptized.
    23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
    24 For John was not yet cast into prison.
    25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
    26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he (Jesus) that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

    John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
    2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples)

    Reaching the right conclusion from this comparison does not require a degree in Christian theology. The requirement for Israel, who only were being baptized by John and his disciples and the disciples of Jesus, was for all, every one of them, to be baptized as a collective one before God's program for Israel and the world could reach fruition. It did not happen because those who had been given stewardship over God's people, the rulers of Israel, rejected him as the Christ, the Son of God, and led the people to do likewise.Therefore, there awaits another baptism for this nation which is not a baptism in water but in fire. The purpose of this baptism is to burn up the chaff and to leave nothing but the good seed.This is the great tribulation, the day of the LORD, which is characterized in all 17 books of the bible, where this phrase is found, as a fire. I get that here, among many other scriptures.

    Matt 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
    6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

    7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
    8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
    9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
    10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: (this is two different future baptisms, the Holy Ghost baptism post resurrection and the fire baptism yet future)
    12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

    Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
    14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
    15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
    16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
    17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
    18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

    19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
    20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
    21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
    22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

    23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
    24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
    25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
    26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

    It is rational to accept the terms of baptism in water as applying to Israel only up until and including this time in history and accepting the clear and unambiguous symbolism as the cleansing of this nation of her sins in preparation for the receiving in the heart of each subject of this nation the Holy Ghost of God, who is the promise of the Father, and whose presence in them is life because he, the Holy Ghost, is life.

    Wouldn't you agree?
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Big long rant fails to simply show John had his disciples baptize too.
     
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  7. JD731

    JD731 Active Member

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    The point is obvious but it is also obvious that that you are majoring on minors. I am interested in a more substantive conversation on the subject of baptism and why it is so important in the economy of God.

    Concerning big long rants; Little short rants don't seem to help anybody but they do demonstrate the lack of study and light on the subjects by those who are defending their own denominational positions and who have not ever really given much critical thought on the subject they are addressing. I might be proven wrong from the scriptures but I have given much consideration and study to what God says and what he intends to teach about himself and his ways with water in the context of salvation, going all the way back to his creation and continuing through history. It is not a trivial subject and the church of Jesus Christ ought to be able to get it right seeing as how we have the Holy Ghost indwelling us to teach us the truth.

    My question is why so many different opinions when we have one book and one Holy Ghost as a teacher of the book. Seems to me like some are blowing smoke. What do you think?
     
  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No it is not obvious.
     
  9. Alex2165

    Alex2165 Member

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    I would like to comment on you first post.


    You wrote:

    "All 12 of the apostles of Jesus Christ were baptized by the disciples of John the Baptist. " If you find this place in the Bible and give me location, I will be very appreciate to you.


    Actually it does not matter, because all 12 Apostles of Christ have been Baptized with the Holy Spirit, (except Judah who died) which is much higher Baptism because of its Spiritual nature - Spiritual Baptism.


    While I was looking to find a place in the Bible where disciples of John the Baptist baptized Apostles of Christ, I found one out of two disciples of John the Baptist, his name was John, he is not the John who wrote Revelation but another John who at the beginning was disciples of John the Baptist, and then he and his friend followed Christ and they became His followers. About him is written in: John 1.35-40.


    But in general, Baptism of John the Baptist was not salvation, but it was only one of steps to salvation. Baptism of John the Baptist was Baptism of Repentance and for Forgiveness of Sins ONLY.


    Mark 1.4-5

    4.John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins,

    5.and all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem, and they were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

    (Acts 2.38, 13.24)


    1Peter 3.21

    21.And corresponding to that baptism, now saves you not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to GOD for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.


    Bible also reveal another type of Baptism, Baptism by Suffering and Baptism by Death.


    Mark 10.38-39

    38.But Jesus said to them, "You do not know what you are asking for. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?"

    39.And they said to Him, "We are able." And Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you shall drink, and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized."


    For some people it is a final Baptism that proves that such people are true GOD'S people and His true followers and disciples, which at first were Apostles of Christ, the highest honor for the people of GOD.


    Baptism has four major stages:

    The First type of Baptism was mentioned in the Law of Moses. This type of Baptism designed ritualistically clean flesh of a person or objects that humans use in their everyday life in order to make them clean from different impurities and uncleanness.


    Also one special Baptism was performed when Moses and Israelites crossed the Red Sea.


    1Corinthians 10.1-4

    1."I do not want you to be unaware brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea,

    2.and all were Вaptized into Moses, in the cloud, and in the sea,"


    Moses was the first man through whom GOD Baptized entire nation of Israel before they entered the Canaan, the Holy Land that GOD prepared for His people Israel.


    The Second type of Baptism is a Baptism of John the Baptist which became half physical and half Spiritual, because he Baptized people in physical water but removed not physical uncleanness but spiritual uncleanness - the sins.


    The Third type of Baptism is by the Holy Spirit of GOD, which Jesus Christ performed Himself and His Apostles (Acts 1.5, 8.17, 11.16) (Matthew 3.11) (Mark 1.8).

    This type of Baptism converted "raw material" - weak and unstable souls of believers, into a strong, dedicated, unbreakable, and permanent faith in GOD.


    The Fourth type of Baptism is the Baptism by trials, suffering, and even death, through which Jesus Christ, His disciples, and all other holy men of GOD went through. This is a final and highest Baptism for specially chosen people of GOD.


    Romans 6.3-4

    3.Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? (Colossians 2.12)

    4.Therefore, we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.


    But there is one important condition for Baptism to be observe:


    Acts 8.36-37

    36.And as they went along the road, they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "Look! Water! What prevent me from being baptized?"

    37.And Philip said, "If you believe with ALL YOUR HEART, you may." (Romans 10.9-10). And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of GOD."


    Baptizing everyone for the sake of numbers or small children would not do any good for anyone, it is worthless and meaningless ritual and make no sense.
     
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The baptism of the Holy Spirit was not until that day of Pentecost which was after Jesus (John 16:7) had ascended to heaven. Acts of the Apostles 1:8-11.
     
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  11. JD731

    JD731 Active Member

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    Thank you for the response. There has not been much feedback so far. You had several points in your post but I would like to make a general statement regarding what I think is an error that we make regarding baptism. Baptism is only one of three parts of the trinitarian model in salvation. Everywhere and in every instance God is a picture of an immersion and is outward. It is never inward as it is often pictured in salvation. Here are the three parts of salvation here.

    Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them,

    Soul - Man - 1) Repent, and

    Body - Man 2) be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall

    Spirit - God 3) receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Water =

    [​IMG]

    H2O


    Water pictures the cleansing agent of God who has been sent into the world for that purpose. The baptism of the Spirit is outward and if he remains present, but outward, there is no salvation. However, if he is on the inside of a man, he cleanses of his sin and is the life of a man, because he is God and is eternal and will never leave the believer.
    This pictures for us the trinitarian oneness of God's dealing with mankind to restore his trinitarian uniqueness that was lost by Adam in the garden when he sinned.

    Baptism is just one of many doctrines that is present all through the scriptures and our enlightenment concerning God's purpose with it is progressive. I am pretty sure one could not really grasp it until one gets to Acts 2 where we can see the first people who were born again of the Spirit of God. Even the earth itself is shown as being baptized in water and the old sinful order is dead and buried and a new order rises from that ash heap into something far more glorious, having been cleansed of it's filthiness' and presented as fresh and new.

    2 Pet 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
    6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
    7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    STOP!

    Don't go any farther until you agree that so far in this Bible the gentiles are not under consideration in the doctrines we have been given. If we are to learn anything about ourselves and what God has in store for us we must learn them through his dealing with his own nation, Israel. Of the four major purposes for which he raised up this nation, one of them is so he that he can through them make his person and his ways known to the rest of the world and can save us from our sins. If you miss this fact or otherwise reject it after you have been told, the depth of your understanding of God will be greatly hampered. Baptism is just one of those doctrines that stands as a figure or a type of God's great salvation and gives us a physical illustration of it.

    The baptism of Israel in the Acts is different from the baptism of the gentiles and the differences are instructive if one ponders them and considers them. John the Baptist baptized Israel at the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ but at that time Jesus had not baptized the nation with the Holy Ghost. All three of the baptisms that Israel has had have been national baptisms. This is because God views Israel as his son, his firstborn. In the OT they had the law but this only condemned them because they could not keep it. The key part of the baptism in Acts 2:38 is "every one of you." All Israel must be saved as one man before God will keep his covenants with them as a nation.
    Israel is a collective one in the thinking of God. He must be saved as one. That did not happen because of the rejection of Israel's leaders in the first 7 chapters of Acts, a period that covered 7 years.

    Ex 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
    23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

    I am out of time now but will continue later.
    .
     
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Just one more irrational argument made by @JD731.
    He never actually answered where in the word of God it is taught that John the Baptist's disciples baptized. Oh, he claimed it was obvious. Makes long rants.

    As for the Trinity. One God and three distinct Persons who are that one and the same God. And then there is the issue of the Word who is identified as the Son of God who from the beginning was and being still both "with God" and God too. John 1:1-2.
    The Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, Romans 8:9 and the Spirit Himself, Romans 8:16 being the one Spirit, John 4:24, even as they are the one Lord and the one God and there being the one baptism, Ephesians 4:4-6. Then there is the singluar teaching of baptisms plural, Hebrews 6:2. John the Baptist explaining, there being water, the Holy Spirit and fire, Matthew 3:11-12. And Baptists differ on their understanding on this. Mostly agreeing that baptism meaning immersion and for believers only.
     
  13. JD731

    JD731 Active Member

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    Baptism is the symbolism of God that pictures something that is actual and real. It is as a proverb and as any proverb, the Spirit of God must be present to teach it to the repentant and interested believer.

    A conversation on Crucifixion eve.

    Jn 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
    14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
    15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
    16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

    17 Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?
    18 They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith.

    19 Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?
    20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

    A parable.
    21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
    22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.

    23 And in that day (when I see you again = resurrection/second coming) ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
    24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
    25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
    26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
    27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
    28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

    29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
    30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

    The bible is the revelation of God in parabolic form, says Jesus Christ, and therefore requires that symbolism be consistent from one end of the scripture to the other and for words to be specific because they carry the symbolism. Water is a symbol for the Spirit of God and stands for cleansing. Water cleanses physical things, like the body of the repentant believer in Christ. The Spirit who we receive into our body when we believe is the Spirit that came out of his body. He is the life of Jesus Christ.

    This is the definition of salvation and men before the cross who believed God were justified and secure only because the blood of Christ would finally be the agent that cleansed them by the Spirit who was given as the gift of God.
    May Jesus Christ have the preemminence in our thinking. He is worthy and deserves all our praise.

    3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
    4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
    5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
    6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
    7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
    8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.


    Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

    The above could not have taken place before the cross. Trust him.
     
  14. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    “The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed.” C. Hodge

    Mk 16:16 is immediately referring to the Jews of 'that generation'. Their belief or unbelief would ultimately determine whether they were 'saved from' or 'condemned to' the casting forth of Matthew 8:12, or the wrath of Matthew 3:7 & Luke 21:22,32, or the destruction of Acts Of The Apostles 3:23, or the breaking off of Romans 11:20, etc..

    38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
    39 For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.
    40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2
     
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  15. JD731

    JD731 Active Member

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    Nothing is more true than this statement.

    This is true. They had a national identity and remained in the land of Israel all through the apostolic era then lost their national identity and were dispersed into the nations of the earth in 70 AD. Ezekiel referenced this as graves from which they would eventually be resurrected, first without the Spirit, and then later with the Spirit.

    What do these verses say and how do they relate to the subject? I am not interested in looking up your proof texts. Your point for these verses is actually unclear.

    Acts 2 is 50 days after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is the 4th feast of Israel and the 2 annual festival where all Jews over 20 years old were required by their law to be in attendance. It was the pouring out, the baptism of Israel, with the Holy Ghost from heaven in such abundance that everyone of them could drink and be saved. They would not be saved until every one of them did. Not all of them did, but just a few. They will, however, at a future time, and it will be made possible because God will kill everyone who refuses to repent. That is what he says.

    Acts 319 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
    20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
    21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
    22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
    23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

    NEWSFLASH! If this has never happened then the prophesy has not been fulfilled and is yet to be fulfilled.

    We know the heavens have received Jesus Christ because we have read in chapter 1 that he ascended according to eyewitnesses, who wrote some of the New Testament at peril to their lives. Why would they hazard their lives with a lie?

    We know the people in these early chapters of Acts refused to hear the Lord and they were not destroyed, so we know this prophesy lacks fulfillment.

    Thirdly, the Lord remains in heaven at the right hand of the Father on his throne to this day and his presence is not with Israel. because he says above, in verse 19 that he will take away their national sins, and in their case, the text indicates that in order to do that he will also have to take away many of the unrepentant sinners of that nation.

    Most people posting on this forum don't believe a word of that prophesy. It goes over their heads.

    Israel will have another national baptism, but not with water. This baptism will not save, but it will destroy. It is yet future but it will surely happen because John the Baptist says so.

    Water baptism

    Matt 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
    6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

    7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
    8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
    9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

    10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
    12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

    He baptized with the Holy Ghost in Acts 2. This is the beginning of the age. He will baptize with fire at the end of the age, which we today are quickly approaching.
     
  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps it would clear things up if you were 'interested' enough to check out the proof texts.
     
  17. JD731

    JD731 Active Member

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    I do know what mine says, and so do you because I post them and demonstrate my logic by believing what they say.
     
  18. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    My question would be why assume the baptism spoken of is water baptism? John introduced the fact that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost. Would this not be the Holy Spirit baptism performed by Jesus Christ upon belief? If it would be water baptism, then water baptism is required for salvation according to this text. Which is the Catholic position.

    Blessings!
     
  19. JD731

    JD731 Active Member

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    The subject is baptism.

    The question is why didn't the apostles get baptized in water.

    Here are some truths stated succinctly that can be proven.

    1) Baptism means to be immersed into, not to have something immersed into you.
    2) The Spirit was abundantly poured out from the Father in heaven in Acts 2 and immersed all Israel
    3) All Israel, every one of them, were commanded to repent and be baptized in water in the name of Jesus Christ and they would receive the Holy Ghost.
    4) The symbolism of the water is a physical illustration of a spiritual truth and confirms the promise of the Father, the Holy Ghost, has been given them.
    5) Water on the outside will not save them but is a symbol of death and must be on the inside to give them life.
    6) The reason they must then be baptized in water in the name of Jesus Christ is to symbolically partake in his death so they might receive his life.
    7) There is no redeeming value in the water itself but Christ must indwell each of them of Israel for them to be saved nationally.

    The preachers and how they confirm this truth.

    1) Only those who ministered with Jesus during his earthly ministry were commissioned to preach this gospel to Israel.
    2) Both the twelve apostles and the seventy prophets preached and baptized those who repented and submitted themselves for baptism.
    3) Two things had to take place for the convert to be saved.
    4) The baptism was first and after that one of the apostles must administer the Spirit to the individual by the laying on of his hands.
    5) This was true so Satanic emissaries and imposters could not infiltrate the early church.
    6) These apostles were as Jesus Christ in their ministry to Israel.
    7) Repentant believers of Israel were baptized into his death by the preachers but the resurrection and giving of life is by Jesus Christ.

    Why were the apostles not baptized in water

    1) The answer to this question is above and is given in John 20.
    2) Jesus Christ met with these 12 apostles on the day of his resurrection.
    3) He first breathed in the Holy Ghost into the bodies of ten of them without any mention of any baptism.
    4) This is the second time God has breathed the breath of life into man.
    5) Next he gave these apostles the commission of binding and loosing.
    6) Jesus Christ was not baptized in water at his resurrection because it was the Spirit that raised his body from the dead and indwelt him.
    7) We are given a detailed example of how this whole scenario played out in Samaria in Acts 8 with Peter's confrontation with Simon, the Satanic plant.
    8) The people had believed the gospel Phillip preached and had been baptized in water but they had not received the Holy Ghost.
    9) Upon hearing that Samaria had been included in the faith by God, the church in Jerusalem sent the apostles, John and Peter, that they might receive the Spirit.
    10) Upon the individual discernment given to these men it was discovered that Simon was not repentant at heart and his sins were retained by Peter.

    What happened in Acts 2

    1) The preachers who were waiting in Jerusalem for the promise of the Spirit at the instruction of Jesus when the Spirit was poured out were said to be "filled" with the Spirit.
    2) Being filled with the Spirit presupposes that they already had the Spirit.
    3) Being filled with the Spirit is different than receiving the Spirit
    4) All Christians are commanded to be filled with the Spirit, which just means to be yielded to him that he may accomplish his will through you.
    5) Receiving the Spirit is a one time occurrence and is the new birth into the family of God.
    6) The will of God for these men is that they preach to Israel the resurrection gospel of Jesus Christ and call every one of them to repentance.
    7) God demonstrated through the 12 disciples of John the Baptist that we encounter in Acts 19:1-7 that justified believers from before the cross must believe in the resurrection of Christ, must be baptized in water to be identified with his death, and must receive the Spirit by the laying on of the apostles hands.
    8) This encounter was in 54 AD or later because Paul met Aquila and Priscilla in Ephesus after all Jews were forced to leave Rome by the new Emperor Claudius.
    9) Claudius had become emperor historically in AD 54.

    Acts 18:2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome) and came unto them.

    Next, the strange language that was applied to Paul after his conversion out of due time and why the gentiles are commanded to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

    Jn 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

    19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

    20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
    21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

    22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

    23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
    24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
     
  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    It is my understanding that immersion without qualification is water. Baptists do not all agree on this understanding. The Spirit immerses the believer into the body of Christ, 1 Corinthians 12:13. Water immersion before Spirit's immersion Mark 16:16 and water immersion after the Spirit immersion, Acts of the Apostles 10:43-48. The water is in addition to the gospel, 1 Corinthians 1:17, ". . . For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: . . ." - the Apostle Paul.
     
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