A strict 5-point Calvinist God is not worthy of worship...

He caused me to love Him Matt. But it must stink the other way as well if not worse must it not?
God gives man a free will to do whatever and he does things to people with a bad intent and our God just sits there doing nothing about it.
Before laying into God for being a nasty bit of work in one way you must explain why he lets people act against the will of another when He is not allowed to act against the will of anyone.
It says that the powers that be are ordained of God. It does not say that Hitler rose to power to kill countless millions and leave Europe in flames while He sat enthroned in the Heavens doing nothing. It says that He made Hitler to fulfill His plans. The Lord gives and the Lord takes away. Blessed be His name.

It stinks both ways round doesn't it?

{QUOTE]Apparently, though, according to them that's God's fault not mine, so I'm let off the hook on that one![/QUOTE]

No Matt, you said it stinks and it does. His fault, although I would not use the word 'fault', our responsibility.
That is God's game of chance. Heads He wins tails we lose.

johnp.

 

My fault! Sorry.

Can't figure it at all man.
I know we can talk about this in with words that sound very posh. I understand about federal headship but it still comes down to the basics.
They are, we are born dead and incapable of pleasing God, who created us in Adam's likeness. That's the cheery news. It's all down hill from there. That is scripture. That is what I read and I accept that as God's word.

We are held to account without account. He is God and does as He pleases.
I think our own minds have created a God that is lovey dovey soft and frilly, a little baby Jesus. He calls Himself the Rock. And says, "Old Rocky calls the shots."

That I have learnt to acknowledge.

It's just as bad the other way round isn't it? Not all hear the word that would save them do they? Not all have the same oppotunity, (without venturing into the Twilight Zone), do they? We are not all the same.
To really make it fair God should, HaHa, create us in the same condition with the same conditions as Adam and Eve. Now that would be fair wouldn't it? You must say, "Yes." No?
Then He is unfair to all of us except Adam and Eve?

This must be where Arminianism should take you. But they think He is lovey dovey.
How about the Arminians telling us poor deluded Calvinists how anyone can get a good shake at this unless He makes us face the same conditions the test was taken in. That's a good argument!
Anything short of equality, if God is fair, is not fair is it?

We must face unpleasant facts.

johnp.

 

MattBlack said:

Still huh! Oh, Well!

 

STRANGE ARGUMENTS... I don't get this one at all. Seems everyone wants to right and none are. I am Calvinists in my theoligy for the most part, yet God has called me to serve Him in an Arminian (for the most part) church. We have no problems in worship or witness. We have no problems in loving our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. We exort one another as our Lord has directed.

The last thing I could imagine taking place in my church is this argument. Yes we have discussed this issue. They know my stand. I know the stand of most in my church differs from my own. SO WHAT!!!! We agree on one thing; It is not important as to how we come to Christ. What is important is that we do. Weather I am correct in what I believe or they it doesn't change the great commision one little letter. It doesn't change God's love for me, nor mine for Him. The same Holy Spirit that has been given to me also lives in my arminian pastor as well.

By His Grace Alone,
Michael
www.friendship-piqua.org

 

Hi acts17_11;

Arguments over these doctrines have been going on for almost 500 years. Ignoring our differences doesn't make them go away.

Are you allowed to teach your view in that church or just discuss it?. I don't believe you can teach Calvinism in a Arminian church without causing division eventually. Of course the church I go to would never turn anyone away unless they simply caused to many disruptions during worship with disagreements.
If it is God who wishes you to be there to do His work, then there would have to be a reason. Is that reason to convert everyone to Calvinism?, or that maybe your views might change?

Actually I think there are few churches that have a congregation where everyone agrees about everything taught.

I've gone to Church most of my life every Sunday for both services Prayer meeting on Wednesday night and Saturday night youth meetings. In all that attendance I have to admit I didn't learn as much as I have right here at Baptist Board. In this debate forum.

It's true I disagree with both Arminianism and Calvinism but the argument isn't just about having the right doctrine. When I first came here I wasn't really sure what view I held because I had never heard of this disagreement. I thought I was a Calvinist until I found out what Calvinism was. Once I knew what each doctrine teaches I knew I wasn't either.

I don't doubt for a minute that all these Christians here, are Christians. They all are very serious about Jesus Christ. The Churches I've been to do not have this many so devoted to what they believe. I respect everyone of them even the ones whom I've had heated debates with.

This debate is a tool of sorts that causes you to examine your self to see if you are in the faith. I believe that is scriptural. For me this is why;
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

It is also a tool to help keep your mind on the things of God always of which I feel is most important. It will teach you if this is your goal how to communicate with others with different views. This requires discipline and control of my own emotions. The control of my tongue so as to not cause hurt but to lovingly tells others what you believe without enraging them.

Doctrine is such a sensitive subject, a very emotional subject. One where the wrongs thing said can cause someone to literally hate you or love you. I've made mistakes and I hope to learn from all of them. But what amazes me most is what I've learned about my self and my relationship with Christ.

What we believe as far as doctrine is our faith and IMHO a faith that isn't defendable isn't worth having.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

Hello ILUVLIGHT.

I attend what I would call an Arminian Church. Some of those there come from Calvinist families and have rejected it. It is possible to reach a place where different views are heard.
It is a Baptist Church with a Baptist history. Visiting preachers could be from either camp so the right and wrong doctrine is heard by all. Space is always made for my point of view at the housegroup during the discussions and it has been known for others to put my point of view if I am not there. That's neat!

Division can be prevented with love.

johnp.

 

Hi JohnP;
To tell you the truth I haven't ever heard of mixed doctrines being taught in a church. Maybe this is why I'm not Calvinist or Arminian. I never really knew what Calvinism was until I came here to BB.com No disrespect intended for either side but I'd really rather just be on the side of Christ.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

Are you allowed to teach your view in that church or just discuss it?. I don't believe you can teach Calvinism in a Arminian church without causing division eventually.


YES!!!! I am and do. In fact I am the discipleship teacher in our church. I also teach that the arminian view has some valid points as well. I do that not to keep my position, nor at the request of any. I teach what I see to be the truth of scripture.

I read another post that talked about thier church members having different views then they but work together anyway. God said they will know us by our love. He commanded that we love our brother's in Him. Argueing about such things doesn't show that love. The key I think is to set priorities. Knowing whats important and what is not. As an example on this subject, I am also the webmaster for our churches web site: Friendship Baptist Church Online and if you look at it you will find that it is reflective of the theoligy of the majority of the church. I have however attempted not to include anything outside what I believe the scriptures teach.

This is I hope all that I need to say on this subject. If you are Christian (Calvinist/Arminian) I love you and call you my brother (or sister). A flower for you. Now don't say I never gave you anything.


By His Grace Alone,
Michael
May we pray for you? If so, click here

 

I just got on this forum but it seems to me that one must ask the question: If it were not for election would any be saved?

I realize someone may have already posed this question. If so it is a question worthy of an answer.

 

God "says" He is not willing that ANY should perish and then extends time to ALLOW for more to come to repentance.


God "says" He so loved the World - then He GIVES His son to be the atoning sacrifice "For OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for those of the WHOLE WORLD".

Having provided salvation - full and free - and also "DRAWN ALL MANKIND to himself" - why does God need to "elect some but not others" for them to be saved?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Why do some respond to the "drawing" of the Holy Spirit while others do not?

 

God's supernatural drawing of ALL mankind - enables what TD disables -- choice.

Adam had choice "enabled" and even though sinless - chose wrong.

Lucifer had choice "enabled" and even though sinless chose wrong.

The loyal Angles had choice "enabled" and chose to remain faithful.

Those who are saints - chose life.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob.

The loyal Angles had choice "enabled" and chose to remain faithful.

Is that why they are called elect? 1 Titus 5:21.

johnp.

 

Hi OldRegular

Haven't you ever thought that the real reason is because they don't want to. That they reject Christ as His own elected people did at the first advent.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

Haven't you ever thought that the real reason is because they don't want to. That they reject Christ as His own elected people did at the first advent.
May God Bless You;
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]His elect did not reject Him at His first advent. The Apostle Paul tells us in Romans 11:1-7

1. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

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