A Theatre of God's Glory--Calvinism and Creation

Pastor Larry,

You have weakened the Calvinist position. You should have said, 'We say that God will freely save all whom He decrees to save.'

Also, I can type this in bold if it will dent your mind. I have often said that Romans 5:1 reminds you gentlemen that you cannot have inner peace/salvation without faith in Jesus. He only justifies those who believe in His work accomplished on the Cross.

Faith, justification and peace is the Godhead's Biblical order.

Regeneration, then faith, then peace is clearly against God's teaching in His Word. You have injested the error of men like Drs. Sproul and James I. Packer, the later having written "Knowing God."

Regards . . .

 

Both are true, but if you go back and read what I was responding to, it is clear why I said can. You said Calvinistic teaching portrays 'the hand of the Lord' as being partially paralyzed, unable to save all of His lost created human beings. I pointed out to the contrary that God Can save whomever he decrees; he is able. The question you are saying I should have answered is an entirely different one.

Can can save all he decrees to save; he is able. God also will save all whom he decrees to save. But those are two entirely different question. As usual, you are conflating some things and missing the point.

NO kidding Ray. Welcome to the party. We have long believed that. The only people on this end who do not believe that are the primitives, and I have pointed out before the fallacy of their position. Calvinism does not disagree with what you have said. You merely show that you do not understand what you are arguing against.

No it's not. You are just jumping from topic to topic here. Stay on a topic for a bit.

 

Pastor Larry,

Good job my friend, if you cannot explain Romans 5:1 then merely ignore exegeting it.

You cannot have peace or justification until you have a faith-trust in Jesus. Sinners are justified by their faith, which is a man or woman's response to God's calling.

 

You can't use Romans 5 to prove anything you've been saying. Paul is not talking about the order of things, nor is Paul talking about any single aspect of salvation being the key aspect.

1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

This says we are justified by faith.

2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

This says the Holy Spirit has been given to us. But it doesn't say when it is given to us.

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Wait a minute. Didn't Paul just say we were justified by faith? Now he says we are justified through His blood. His blood was shed before we had faith, so according to Rayism, we were justified before we even knew anything about Jesus. If you're thinking according to Ray, you've got to make up your mind, Paul, because He wants you to speak in terms of a sequence of events. So which is it? Are we justified by faith, or by the blood of Jesus?

10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Now Paul is saying we're reconciled through the death of His Son, and saved by His life. According to Paul, we're not saved by faith, grace or anything else -- just His life. Wow, Paul must really be confused.

[sarcasm off]

The problem here is that you're taking a section of Romans that expounds upon many aspects of salvation and trying to sort them into an order according to the definitions you want. That is not exegesis at all.

 

I can explain it fine because I have exegeted it. It has absolutely nothing to do with what you said. YOu jumped from regernation preceding faith to the relationship of faith and justification. Your argument in a nutshell was that since faith precedes justification, faith must also precede regeneration. In yet another blazing display that you do not know what you are talking about, you failed to note that regeneration and justification are not the same. I don't know of any Calvinist that believes that they are. Romans 5:1 clearly teaches that justification proceeds from faith. I do not argue that point, and I do not believe many Calvinists do. But that is an entirely different topic than whether or not regeneration precedes faith. You should know that by now.

Spoken like a true Calvinist. However, that was the not the topic you were addressing. You were addressing whether regeneration precedes faith, not whether justification precedes faith.

Do this: Go find out what these terms mean and how they are used. That way, you won't keep making these kinds of posts.

Now, let's return this thread to its topic.

 

Pastor Larry,
Although I may disagree with you on your regeneration/salvation distinction on some fine points. Ray is obviously not addressing what you are saying. I am familiar with your view because I have coworkers who believe the same and it is typical or Primitives. Just thought I would say (as an outsider) that your argument (although I disagree)has not been touched.

No harm intended,
May God bless

 

Good job my friend, if you cannot explain Romans 5:1 then merely ignore exegeting it.

You cannot have peace or justification until you have a faith-trust in Jesus. Sinners are justified by their faith, which is a man or woman's response to God's calling. </font>[/QUOTE]Very true.

Preach the Word brother.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Where does this come from? Who said anything about evolution. That is entirely beside the point. The reason I brough Edwards up is to show how varigated that Calvinism is (I would claim that Arminianism is a member of this varied family and not in total opposition).

Grace and Peace, Danny </font>[/QUOTE]When some people say "creation" they really mean "evolution".

Just trying to clarify the meaning you are using.

I don't see anyway to get the Arminian position to be in Harmony with Calvinism on the subject of limited atonement, or arbitrary selection.

In Christ,

Bob