A Tough Issue With Primitive Baptist

Hello, Pastor Larry:

Warm Christian Greetings ! (apologies to Robert J. Hutton )
You said "I would never attend a church who did it that way ".
Well, of course, you are entitled to that principle. I only wish you had not put a note of finality to your statement.
But not wanting to do Sunday School because we PB's would like to stick as close to how the first
church did things and proving, historically and scripturally, that such practice is unscriptural is certainly not "weak argument".
I think personally that if God says the parents are responsible for something in His behalf, then the parents are responsible for something in His behalf and believers ought not to go beyond the parameters set by God because we might not see the wisdom of such parameters with our eyes but God certainly does.
Now, if I were in an area where there are Baptists, Primitive or otherwise, but who are Arminian in theology (yes, Virginia, there are Arminian PB's )and there is a Methodist or Presbyterian church some miles away who preach the doctrines of Grace, then I would certainly go and attend worship in the Presbyterian or Methodist church, Sunday School or no, musical instruments or not, many miles away or a door down.
You see, ever since my Savior opened my eyes to the scope of His love and grace, my basis for fellowship had been, "do they preach the Doctrine of Grace?" "do they preach God sovereign in all ?"
"do they preach the Blood ?" "Do they preach all the essentials of the faith once delivered to the saints ?" Then they are my brethren in Christ, Baptist or not.
I do not speak for all the PB brethren here, but I would certainly not view Sunday School as a test of fellowship, just as many PB's do not also consider close or closed communion among PB's a test of fellowship.
But between joining to a Primitive Baptist church who does Sunday School and one who does not, I would certainly choose the latter, because joining the former would make me and them uncomfortable with each other.

Were it not for grace....
(uhmmm...I think somebody else said that here }

 

Thanks for your kind response and I hope you understand my approach. We disagree obviously, and I am trying to find out why.

I guess my question would still be, what is the biblical principle on which you forbid SS and small group Bible study. That the NT church didn't do it is 1) an assumption, 2) an argument from silence, and 3) assuming that NT church practices are normative. Yet I would guess that you are not eating together every night as the NT church did. I assume you are probably not preaching Christ daily from house to house as the NT church did. In other words, there are multitudes of things that the NT church did not do that we do. And I think that is where your argument falls apart if you are consistent with this application.

As for never attending, if their reasoning was your reasoning, my statement stands. I can't imagine a situation where it would be otherwise though it might arise. I too believe strongly in the doctrines of grace and would not attend a church who did not believe in them. However, I would find a Baptist church that did so rather than attending a Presbyterian or some other church. I may consider a Bible church though I would not be my first choice. OF course, I can just start a church ... that solves that problem

However, that kind of reasoning would make me suspect of their whole theology (with due respect). It seems to place a reasoning value on things that are not wholly biblical.

As for God giving responsibilities, I agree. But SS in no way undermines that. It increases it and enables it. I cannot see how SS undermines the father's role in teaching. To argue that believers should not go past it doesn't seem to fit here. How is SS going past what God ordained?? Providing scriptural teaching is no way going past anything that God has ordained. Now if SS is taking the place of spiritual teaching in the home, that is a different matter. But what about kids who come whose parents don't? We ahve a number of children like that. We wish it was different but it's not ... yet. Nor do I think it is about "wisdom in our eyes." Again, I just can't see the point. "Wisdom" says that when God says to teach his truth, we do that. Scripture does not prescribe the setting in which it is done. I have found that the most productive part of my ministry is my small group Adult Bible Fellowship class. It is the place where the most affect is evident.

Having said all that, I am seriously interested in the biblical prohibition against SS or small group Bible study. On what Scriptural basis do you guys prohibit this?

Thanks again,
Larry

 

First - to Brother Glen - I understand your concerns, both about being misunderstood and about "airing dirty laundry." Many members here may not be aware that this is a current heated controversy among Primitive Baptists. The discussion of that controversy will certainly do well to remain contained to the Primitive Baptists; but a general discussion may be helpful to clarify what some people misunderstand about Primitive Baptist positions on the Sunday School/Bible Study subject. I think this is one area where the vast majority of the rest of Baptists might recoil in horror thinking Primitive Baptists are opposed to studying the Bible. Nothing could be further from the truth! Regardless of who is right or wrong - this is an issue of methods and practices (and traditions - on both sides), not whether someone objects to studying the Bible. But you should be aware that this is how it comes across to many people, especially if they are not aware of the history of the controversy of Sunday Schools (going all the way back to early 1800).

One thing that might help the clarity in this discussion would be to ditch the terminology "Sunday School" and discuss what kind of group Bible study is allowable or if it is allowable at all. The reason I say this is because that the term probably has many different meanings for different people discussing the topic. Some Sunday Schools are full-fledged age and gender divided groupings from infant to octogenarian, with study booklets that are not even Bible based. I know what others call "Sunday School" is a simple pre-meeting before the regular worship and preaching time in which an elder or deacon teaches a predetermined portion of some book of the Bible (or chapter, verse or topic). Finally, I would also add that I can imagine no reasons that Arminians would object to anything in what commonly is called Sunday School in our day, while I would think that most Sovereign Grace believers would object to many of these things, though arriving at different degrees of objection.

General objections to numerous Sunday Schools/Bible Studies:
1. Many have an unspoken (and possibly unconscious) idea that there are three groups of people - unbelievers, believers, and the children of believers. There are only two - everyone is either a believer or an unbeliever.
2. Related to this is an Arminian idea that if we simply teach our children the Bible and its truths they will become Christians. Some mistake an intellectual acceptance of the truths of the Bible for a heart-based faith in Christ.
3. With the age-based classes for younger children, the church often unknowingly assumes that these are little Christians in training; while, if unconverted, they are in fact unbelievers. I have no objections to unbelievers attending church and learning what they can during that attendance, but, in the maze of Sunday School activity, we may lose sight of the crisp reality that the church is an assembly of baptized believers.
4. Many of the Sunday Schools/Bible Studies seem to have forgotten that spiritual truth is spiritually discerned (i.e., understood by believers who have the indwelling Spirit). I do not deny that children-unbelievers and adult-unbelievers do learn facts about the Bible. I do not think they can grasp truth spiritually while in an unconverted state.
5. The tendency toward leaving the study of the Bible in favor of the study of prepared materials (some Bible-based and some not Bible-based) is common, though not universal.
6. Not a general objection, but a specific observation: I have known of several churches that elected people to teach Sunday School in an attempt to get them to attend church more regularly.

All these things being said, I think the church (the assembly of baptized believers) has not only the right, but also the duty, to study the Bible corporately. Acts 17:11 - "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." I have no doubt that this was corporate Bible study. If we import our own time-based thinking, in which everyone has access to a printed Bible, we might assume this was just individuals studying alone at home. But knowing that homes would scarcely have a copy of the scriptures, I think we rightly understand that these people came together and studied the Scriptures. If I were "organizing" the Bible study, it would be for the church (the entire gathering of the baptized believers) and taught by one of the elders or deacons in a through-the-entire-Bible format. Any unbelievers who were present would be allowed to sit in and glean whatever they may. But I also allow a little liberality for other brethren who are sincerely and lovingly studying the Bible in a somewhat different format (even though they are wrong ). But I would not be a member of a church that has a modern Sunday School format (neither would I be a member of nor regularly attend a paedobaptist church, no matter how strong on the doctrines of grace). With that statement I in no way intend to impugn the sincerity and love for the Lord any of these may have.

 

I am wondering why on earth a Scriptural reason has been asked for to have Sunday School? You need a Scriptural reason to bring some of the Bible studies down to the level of the children so they can learn more?

I learned the Bible stories in Sunday School in the fourth and fifth grade. I mean REALLY learned them. No nonsense learning time! Excellent teacher.

Through tumultuous junior high years I was reminded in Sunday School of God's love for me constantly and I really needed to hear that. In jr. hi we studied Paul's letters. That is when I was starting to learn to think on my own and being exposed so thoroughly to his logic and doctrine at that point helped me learn how to think, too.

In high school it kept me in with a safe bunch of kids. Social protection. Maybe that doesn't go over too well with the Primitive Baptists, but teens are a confused lot and need all the help they can get.

I came from a non-Christian home, by the way. So, yes, the outreach was as much for me as anyone. I went to church with a girlfriend and her family. They were faithful to pick me up every Sunday from fourth grade on.

I thought I was Christian because I agreed with everything I had been taught. I was born again, however, in my mid-twenties.

I will never cease being grateful for the men and women who taught those Sunday School lessons and the churches that sponsored them. It has been my joy and privilege to have been a Sunday School teacher myself in years past -- and I have to say that, especially when I worked with teenagers, I probably learned as much from them as they did from me.

It's one of the healthiest and most stimulating ways I know to get kids involved in Bible on a personal and thinking and praying basis.

Why do we need a specific Scripture for THAT?

 

Helen, I have a great deal of respect for your position on this board and especially with your work in the creation/evolution arena. So I expect you don't mean this the way it sounds to me. What I would say is, "Surely we need a scriptural reason for whatever we do." I would also say that most "Sunday Schools" are more than just bringing Bible studies down to the level of children.

Most of the rest of your post centers on experience. I think we can all have a place of thankfulness for the experiences that God has providentially brought us through. But we must also keep in mind that certain good things within the experience do not make everything about the experience scriptural. For example, if we were to insert "the Methodist Church" in place of Sunday School, how would that sound? Would that mean we should recognize the Methodist Church as scriptual and that we all ought to be in one?

 

First, I don't like to write lengthy post. Don't read many either.

Second, this should lead someone to open their Bibles.

My answer about Sunday school vs Bible study:

Train up a child . . .
(It's our job)
Forsake not yourselves from assembling . . .
(We should come together)
And what about being unequally yoke . . .
(Divide them by age or maturity)

Reena