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Featured A very serious major doctrinal change after the apostles

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by evangelist-7, Jun 23, 2012.

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  1. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7 New Member

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    Aaaaaaah, kind of like: "For I am the Lord, I do not change" (Malachi 3:6)
    Yeah, the Lord was reassuring them that He would never change His nature/attributes.
    Yeah, that's good ... they really needed to know that.
    Yup, that's what they really needed to know.

    You mean we're in an age of grace now, but those poor folk in the NT days were not?
    Hint: in the OT they were under the Law, not under grace.
    Do you think anyone ever any place any time any how were ever saved apart from grace?
    (Geez, now I'm writin' the way Moriah used to write.)

    Today in this present age of grace ... Yeah, let's write a song about this and become rich and famous.
    .
     
    #61 evangelist-7, Jul 9, 2012
  2. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7 New Member

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    A great Baptist pastor


    From one of 4 Moderators on a large Christian Forum ...

    The great Baptist pastor and evangelist D.L. Moody prayed that, too, sis ... and he said that one day
    God answered that prayer, filling him as he was walking up Wall Street in New York.
    Right in the middle of the hubbub of that great city, God so baptized him, so overcame him,
    with the power of the Holy Spirit that he had to seek refuge and solitude at a friend's house
    where he secluded himself in a room where he was so overwhelmed by the Presence and Power of God
    that he could not function for hours.
    Moody credits that with the conversion of his ministry from a poor effort
    to one overflowing with God's power and His answers.
    You can read R.A. Torrey's account of it (he and Moody were best friends and co-workers for the Lord)
    at Why God Used D.L. Moody by R. A. Torrey - Christian Biography Resources.
    All seven reasons why God used Moody are important, and should be read by every man and woman
    seeking to be used of God; but it is point 7 of this article that recounts the above story in detail.
    .
     
    #62 evangelist-7, Jul 25, 2012
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    many of those in the Bible, when aware of the presense of god in a special fashion to them, as the prophet Isaiah. were put into a state of awe/fear/overwealm etc...

    moody no doubt had an experience with God perhaps, but the power for Him to preach jesus came from the Holy Spirit, due to him being saved and yielding to the Spirit enabling!

    far as I know, Moody did no signs/wonders/healings!
     
    #63 Yeshua1, Jul 25, 2012
  4. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple Active Member

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    the gospel is not preached using only words, it comes with miracles, or power. The latter confirms to the listener that the speaker is truly from God. Anything else is just words, any actor can do that, no integrity there.
     
    #64 plain_n_simple, Jul 25, 2012
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    So john the baptist was an 'Imiator?" as was isaiah, Apostle John etc?

    the Gospel preacht/taught in powering and boldness from the Holy Spirit, THATS what is real deal!
     
    #65 Yeshua1, Jul 25, 2012
  6. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7 New Member

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    Smith Wigglesworth

    Many thanks for the photo of probably God's greatest healing evangelist since the NT days!
    And thanks for your words of wisdom also!

    If anyone would care to invest some time and do some in-depth research on
    this great man of God, you will discover a lot about latter days s/w/m.
    .
     
    #66 evangelist-7, Jul 26, 2012
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Too bad there were few, if any, healings that were medicaslly verified!

    he did like "prayer cloths and handerchiefs" though!
     
    #67 Yeshua1, Jul 27, 2012
  8. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7 New Member

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    Just many many thousands of witnesses (including da healed ones) over what, a 40 year period.

    IMO, you know what the unpardonable sin is ...
    attributing the incredible workings of the Holy Spirit ... to Satan.
    Yes, Jesus was very upset indeed at this demonically-inspired unbelief.
    .
     
    #68 evangelist-7, Jul 27, 2012
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Did we not to miracles in your name, healing, cast out demons?

    Go Away for I never knew you!
     
    #69 Yeshua1, Jul 27, 2012
  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I went to your article and read point number seven in its fullness. Are you not suprised that no speaking in tongues accompanied his experience? Absolutely no testimony, not one single word about speaking in tongues?

    Don't you find that strange considering your own belief concerning the baptism in the Spirit?

    I had a similar experience that Moody had and no speaking in tongues either. I was overwhelmed with the presence of God in so much I asked him to stay his hand because I thought I could not bear any more. Indeed, I had that experience on a couple of occassions. No speaking in tongues either.

    However, I do not believe that experience had anything to do with the baptism in the Spirit either. I believe the filling of the Holy Spirit comes in different measures at different times for different needs.

    Unlike Moody, none of the apostles or Jesus Christ ever instructed preachers to preach on the Baptism in the Spirit. No apostle instructed his readers to seek the baptism in the Spirit. However, the filling of the Spirit and walking in the Spirit is the repeated theme throughout the writings of the apostles and the experience of Christ.
     
    #70 The Biblicist, Jul 28, 2012
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    IF the real display of preaching the word in power has to be signs/wonders/tongues...

    Were John the baptist and prophet Isaiah "poor preachers?"
     
    #71 Yeshua1, Jul 28, 2012
  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Yes, since the "baptism in the Spirit" has a dated origin (Acts 1:5) then no pre-Pentecostal preacher could preach in power and demonstration of the Spirit of God. Didn't Jonah preach and a whole city repented? Yet without the baptism in the Spirit and indeed even WITHOUT A WILLING SPIRIT! The power is in God and His energizing the gospel of Christ - 1 Thes. 1:4-5.
     
    #72 The Biblicist, Jul 28, 2012
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Which pretty makes his ponts on proper gospel preaching null and void!
     
    #73 Yeshua1, Jul 28, 2012
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    It is the "spirit of error" that is behind the whole charismatic movement from its inception in 1905. Both in England and in America it began by those who were intentionally seeking the baptism in the Spirit manifested by speaking in tongues. It had no origin in a sincere desire to glorify God or seek the salvation of the lost but in self-centered seeking after signs. Jesus spoke of such a religous group with those designs when he said:

    Mt 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

    This movement was predicted by both Jesus and Paul (Mt. 24:24; 2 Thes. 2:9).

    There is not another movement within Christendom that is so full of DOCTRINAL confusion as this movement and yet all confess the baptism in the Spirit as their distinctive doctrine. There is not a movement that embraces more denominations and diverse doctrines than this movement - it is in essence the "spirit of error."
     
    #74 The Biblicist, Jul 28, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 28, 2012
  15. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7 New Member

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    No, not so strange ... because out of 14 NT passages re: this baptism
    only 3 times are (confirming) tongues mentioned (see the chart).

    IMHO, they were so accustomed to tongues that they didn't think them extraordinary at all.
    Acts 2 was the standard and the expected. NOT LIKE TODAY.

    1 Luke 24:49 ------ 8 Acts 8:14-19
    2 Acts 1:4-8 ------ 9 Acts 9:17-18
    3 Acts 2:1-4 ----- 10 Romans 15:19
    4 Acts 2:33-39 --- 11 Acts 10:44-48
    5 Acts 4:8-16 ---- 12 Acts 11:15-17
    6 Acts 4:31 ------ 13 Acts 14:3
    7 Acts 5:12-16 ----14 Acts 19:5-6

    ------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
    the Promise --------Y-Y---Y-------------------------
    baptism with H.S. ----Y-------------Y--------Y-----Y
    the gift -----------------Y---------------Y--Y------
    upon ---------------Y Y Y---------Y-------Y--Y-----Y
    laying on of hands ---------------Y-Y-----------Y--Y
    filled with H.S. -------Y---Y-Y-----Y---------------
    received H.S. --------------------Y-------Y---------
    speaking tongues -------Y-----------------Y--------Y
    power --------------Y-Y-----------Y----Y------------
    boldness -------------------Y-Y-----------------Y---
    miracles -------------------Y---Y---Y--Y--------Y---

    It should be noted that "the Promise" and the "gift" were none other than the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
    Not the Spirit Himself, nor salvation, but the baptism.
    .
     
    #75 evangelist-7, Jul 28, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 28, 2012
  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Either you did not read my post above carefully or you are playing games. Reread it please as your response makes no sense in connection with what I said.

    I was not speaking about the number of times the baptism in the Spirit is mentioned in the Scriptures. I was pointing out speaking tongues is totally absent in R.A. Torrey and D.L. Moody's testimony of their own experience.

    I pointed out that the apostles NEVER encourage their readers to seek the baptism in the Spirit - NEVER!
     
    #76 The Biblicist, Jul 28, 2012
  17. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    That's because baptism in the Spirit does not have to be sought. It occurs once and for all at conversion/regeneration. This is a major Pentecostal error; it sets up two classes of Christians: the "elevated" and "advanced" ones who have received "the baptism" and the lesser ones who have not.
     
    #77 Michael Wrenn, Jul 28, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 28, 2012
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I am sorry but I do not believe your position is correct either as your position equally sets up two classes of believers. One class of believers before Pentecost that do not have the indwelling Spirit of God and one class of beleivers after Pentecost that do have the indwelling Spirit of God.

    In contrast Paul divides all humanity into two classes - Rom. 8:8-9

    1. Those in the flesh - the lost
    2. Those in the Spirit - the saved

    There is no THIRD class and there is no SUB-class of believers.
     
    #78 The Biblicist, Jul 28, 2012
  19. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    I didn't say that I held that the believers before Pentecost did not have the indwelling Spirit of God, so you are merely surmising that's what I believe. I do not.
     
    #79 Michael Wrenn, Jul 28, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 28, 2012
  20. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You have no other option simply because the baptism in the Spirit is dated in Acts 1:5.


    1. You define it as simeltaneous with regeneration do you not?

    2. If it did not originate until Acts 2:1-3 then it is obvious that it did not occur previously to Acts 2:1-3.

    what other choice do you have?
     
    #80 The Biblicist, Jul 28, 2012
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