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Aaron's Priesthood vs Melchizedek's

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Zuno Yazh, Mar 14, 2018.

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  1. Zuno Yazh

    Zuno Yazh Member

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    A man named Melchizedek was God's high priest in Abraham's day. (Gen 14:18-20, Heb 5:10)

    Mel's priesthood was active prior to Aaron's; i.e. prior to the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

    Deut 5:2-4 . .Yhvh our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. Yhvh did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today.

    That is a very, very important detail to note seeing as how the covenant wasn't set up to be enforced ex post facto; i.e. it isn't retroactive.

    There's more.

    Rom 4:15 . .The law produces wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there violation.

    In other words: certain behaviors aren't illegal until a law is enacted to prohibit them; i.e. seeing as how God didn't prohibit dishonesty in Mel's jurisdiction, then whenever Abraham lied; God didn't write him up for it.

    Rom 5:13b . . . Sin is not accounted when there is no law.

    The koiné Greek word translated "accounted" is ellogeo (el-log-eh'-o) which essentially speaks of keeping a record; i.e. an indictment.

    Equally important to note is that Christ's high priesthood isn't patterned after Aaron's; rather, after Melchizedek's (Ps 110:4, Heb 5:1-7:28). As a result: Christ's believing followers are in no danger of being written up for breaking the Ten Commandments; not one single curse listed in the Jews' covenant applies to Christ's believing followers-- not one. That's quite an advantage.

    /
     
  2. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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  3. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    so what is the purpose of the Aaronic type priest and the Mosaic Law?
     
  4. Zuno Yazh

    Zuno Yazh Member

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    The apostle Paul endured quite a bit of stress persuading Christ's believing followers that it's humanly impossible to obtain heaven by means of compliance with the Ten Commandments. He didn't succeed; not with all of them. Many refused to get in step even though he claimed to have received his information straight from the horse's mouth.

    Gal 1:11-13 . . For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

    However, though it's humanly impossible to obtain heaven by means of compliance with the Ten Commandments, it is essential to comply with them while in heaven in order to stay in heaven; not just the Ten only, but all of God's commandments. And one's compliance cannot be spotty, it has to be flawless.

    So; what's the secret to this apparent Catch-22?

    The secret is found in a promise that God made to His people back in the Old Testament.

    Ezek 36:26-27 . . I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit into you: I will remove the heart of stone from your body and give you a tender heart; and I will put My spirit into you. Thus I will cause you to follow My laws and faithfully to observe My rules.

    An "heart of flesh" would normally be regarded in modern Sunday school classes as a bad thing. Here in Ezekiel, flesh is juxtaposed with stone to indicate that God is talking about tenderness; which can be defined as gentleness, kindness, sensitivity, and deep affection; i.e. the warm, softer emotions.

    A heart of stone is cold and dead, like those massive granite monoliths in Yosemite Valley. They feel not the slightest bit of pity for climbers who lose their grip and fall. Nope, those big rocks just go on like nothing ever happened; silent, indifferent, unconcerned, non grieving, non compassionate, and unsympathetic; i.e. they feel nothing: nothing at all.

    Bottom line: Seeing as how love is essential to proper compliance with the Ten Commandments; then the thoughtless, the callous, and the insensitive would be shut out of heaven forever and ever were it not for Ezek 36:26-27.

    Watch as I deliberately paraphrase the following passages. Though the texts aren't verbatim quotes from the Bible; the message that the paraphrases convey is spot-on.

    John 3:3 . . I assure you: unless hard-hearted people are born again, they can never see the Kingdom of God.

    John 3:7 . . Don't be surprised at my statement that the uncivil must undergo regeneration by the hand of God.

    According to "my statement" regeneration isn't optional; it's a must.


    NOTE: It's commonly complained that Ezek 36:26-27 produces robots. But people are already robotic due to their slavery to human nature.

    Jer 13:23 . . Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

    Writing about this situation; the apostle Paul said:

    Eph 2:1-3 . .You were dead in your transgressions and sins in which you once lived following the age of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the disobedient. All of us once lived among them in the desires of our flesh, following the wishes of the flesh and the impulses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest.

    I rather think most people would be much better off as slaves to divine nature rather than human nature.


    FYI: Robots have artificial intelligence. People on track for heaven will have Christ's intelligence.

    John 11:25 . . I am the resurrection, and the life

    /
     
  5. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Can you give Scripture for your statement that is in bold?
     
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  6. Zuno Yazh

    Zuno Yazh Member

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    From the very day of its introduction; the primary purpose of the first covenant (a.k.a. Moses' covenant) is as a codified law for governing Yhvh's people in their land; and its laws, rules, statutes, and regulations will be strictly enforced in Messiah's millennial kingdom; sacrifices and all. (Ezek 20:33-34, Jer 33:14-18)

    /
     
  7. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    But the millennial reign is not heaven, and even then no account is given that in the midst one is “kicked out.”
     
  8. Zuno Yazh

    Zuno Yazh Member

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    1Cor 6:9-10
    Gal 5:19-21
    Rev 21:8
    Rev 21:27
    Rev 22:15

    Dishonesty is especially intolerable in heaven; and that's unfortunate because some people are born liars.

    Ps 58:3 . . The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth.

    That's an interesting statement. It's saying-- in so many words --that although infants are too young to tell a lie; some are born with a proclivity to lie; i.e. a natural predilection, and that's what makes them wicked because the inclination to lie is intrinsic, and will eventually have its way with them; and of course disqualify them for permanent residence in heaven.

    /
     
  9. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Ok, I see that you are presenting two facets as one.

    You seem to be presenting that some who are and practice lawlessness and immorality... actually are saved, and will be kicked out if such occurs in heaven.
    If I am incorrect in that summery of your thinking, then I need correction of what your view entails.

    I think that perhaps the foundational thinking may need a slight adjustment, for you are correct upon what type of person actually inherits the New Heaven and New Earth. The adjustment comes in two ways:

    The first being that the list of folks who practice sinfulness as found in 1 Corinthians 6 and in Galatians 5, are not redeemed to begin with, and so they do not get to enter the New Heaven and New Earth.

    The second is the purity of the New Heaven and the New Earth is not preserved, but is because such do not get to inhabit it at all.

    But, I also want to give you this small nugget of security.

    Paul in addressing the 1 Corinthians 6:11 uses the phrase, "And that is what some of you were ..."

    The person who can continue unchecked and not rebuked by the Holy Spirit while practicing sin, is not saved.

    1 John 2:1 states:
    My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you might not sin. And if anyone should sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous One
    The Scriptures do not teach that a believer can live and not sin.

    Rather, that if the believer sins, we have an advocate.

    However, if one practices sinfulness without rebuke, there is no advocacy, that person has never been redeemed.
     
  10. Zuno Yazh

    Zuno Yazh Member

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    Ezek 36:26-27 and John 3:3-8 ensure that no one who makes it to heaven ever need fear getting kicked out.

    /
     
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  11. Zuno Yazh

    Zuno Yazh Member

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    Some Bibles describe the priesthood of Melchizedek as an "order" which, in Ps 110:4, is translated from the Hebrew word dibrah (dib-raw'), a word that can mean-- among other things --a reason, a suit, or a style.

    Translating dibrah as an order is misleading because portions of the epistle to Hebrews go to lengths explaining that Melchizedekian high priests are not only high priests for life, but for all eternity; i.e. they are not succeeded when they die like Aaronic high priests because Melchizedekian high priests are immortal.

    Seeing as how the Melchizedekian high priesthood isn't an order-- i.e. a line --then it's best described as a style; like this:

    "The Lord has sworn and will not waver: you are a priest forever in the manner of Melchizedek.”

    The Mormon religion consists of two priesthoods: the order of Aaron and the order of Melchizedek. In accordance with the Bible; both of those priesthoods are high priesthoods; which is a systemic flaw in Mormonism's thinking because according to the Bible; the position of high priest is a one-priest job rather than a job tended by a guild of priests. Seeing as how Christ is God's current appointee for the Melchizedekian priesthood, then Mormonism's priests have to be assumed imposters.

    In addition, Melchizedekian high priests are supposed to be immortal; but Mormonism's priests pass away all the time just the same as everybody else.

    Thirdly, the office of the Melchizedekian priesthood is currently in heaven (Heb 8:4); viz: Mormonism's order of Melchizedek, even if it were valid, is off-reservation.

    /
     
  12. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Hell Zuno, and welcome to the forum, I hope your time here will be blessed, and that you in turn will be a blessing to others.

    And sorry our first exchange has to be one of debate, but, this is a debate forum, and if you are like myself, will welcome the challenge.


    There is simply no biblical basis for such a statement.

    There is one High Priest named Melchizedek, and the Writer of Hebrews uses him as an example of Christ as our Great High Priest.

    Christianity has only One High Priest, and apart from the Levitical Priesthood's service in the Millennial Kingdom, it makes little sense to suggest of a Priesthood in Heaven other than that of Christ.

    But be glad to see your Biblical Basis from the Book of Hebrews that "go to lengths explaining that Melchizedekian high priests are not only high priests for life, but for all eternity."

    They?

    There was only ever...one. lol


    Which is to show his (the Writer's) brethren (Hebrews) that they are to look to another Priest which is not of the Tribe of Levi.

    That is what he goes to great lengths to explain.



    Hebrews 7:8-14
    King James Version (KJV)

    8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

    9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

    10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

    11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

    12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

    13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

    14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.



    There is no focus on the High Priest, but the Tribe of Levi and the Levitical Priesthood in general.


    So how is it that you have another "order" of Priest...in Heaven with our One Great High Priest?

    ;)


    Christ is God's "Current" appointee?

    Would you mind telling what klnd of Baptist Church you are a member of?


    Where do we see that in Scripture?

    That Melchizedek did not have an "end of days" simply refers to the fact there is so little information of him in Scripture. He was just a man, and would have died like every other man.

    Christ is the Firstborn from the dead, the First to rise again never to again die.


    Sorry, no:


    Hebrews 8
    King James Version (KJV)

    8 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

    2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

    3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

    4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:



    Melchizedek was a type, not the reality. That too is something the Writer goes to a lot of trouble to explain.


    Having a little trouble with yours as well.

    Melchizedek is used as an example of a Priest having superiority over the Levitical Priesthood (not the High Priest alone), and our Great High Priest is not to be equated with the type.

    Just as animal sacrifice is not given an equable quality to His Sacrifice.

    Just as the earthly Tabernacle is not to be made equal to the Holiest of All (Heaven).

    Just as the atonement and remission of sins found in animal sacrifice is not to be equable to the Atonement and Remission of Sins Christ accomplished.


    God bless.
     
  13. Zuno Yazh

    Zuno Yazh Member

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    Heb 5:4-6 . . No one takes this honor upon himself; he must be called by God, just as Aaron was. So Christ also did not take upon himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him: "You are my Son; today I have become your Father." And he says in another place: "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."

    /
     
  14. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Hebrews 5:4-6
    King James Version (KJV)

    4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

    5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

    6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.



    Nothing in this, or in the Whole of God's Word suggests Christ is the "current" appointee.

    Again, you err to equate Christ with Melchizedek, because Christ stands alone as The Great High Priest.


    Hebrews 5:10-12
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

    11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

    12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.



    The Writer rebukes his Hebrew brethren because they did not understand the First Principles of the Word of God.

    Melchizedek is a principle, a type, and nothing more.

    There is no "Melchizedekian Priesthood" in Heaven, there is only the Great High Priesthood of Christ.


    God bless.
     
  15. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    God was dealing with people outside of Abraham .


    This is wrong , He was a :

    Gen 14:18
    And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
    Gen 14:19
    And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
    Gen 14:20
    And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

    Heb 7:1
    For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;

    Jesus's Priest hood is not of Aaron, He was not A Levite.
     
  16. Zuno Yazh

    Zuno Yazh Member

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    The finer details of Yom Kippur as per Lev 23:27-32, Lev 16:29-34, and Num 29:7 don't really matter all that much to Christ's believing followers because Christianity mostly concerns itself with the ritual's limitations.

    In the New Testament epistle to Hebrews; it's explained that Yom Kippur's purpose is primarily for addressing sins committed during the year; i.e. the very moment that the Aaronic high priest completes the full and complete annual ritual, new sins immediately begin accumulating on the books that require yet another Yom Kippur; and another, and another, and yet another, ad infinitum; viz: one Yom Kippur alone isn't sufficient to address the peoples' sins once and for all time. In other words: the annual ritual is always and only for addressing the people's sins one past year at a time; it never atones for sins that the people are on track to commit in the years ahead.

    What the people seriously need is a one-time atonement whose potency is such that they can never sin beyond it; i.e. an atonement whose scope not only takes into consideration their past, but also their event horizon and beyond. It doesn't take much imagination to appreciate just how huge an advantage such an atonement would be.

    As a Roman Catholic, I wasn't taught to seek an acquittal for future sins; only for those already on the books; thus Catholicism implies that the scope of Christ's atonement is essentially no different than Yom Kippur's.

    I was in desperate need of a safety net because according to paragraph 1035 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church; had I perchance departed this life in a state of mortal sin I would have gone straight to Hell.

    In other words: unless Christ's crucifixion was designed to cover my mortal sins not only after they're committed but also in the future before they're committed-- i.e. those already on the books and those not yet on the books -- the danger of my going to hell was extreme.

    Roughly 700 years before Jesus Christ was born, the Bible makes this statement concerning him in the Old Testament:

    Isa 53:6 . .We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and The Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    Note the grammatical tense of the verb "laid". It's past tense, indicating that the iniquity of us all was covered by Jesus' crucifixion even before he was born; in point of fact even before the creation of the cosmos with all of its forms of life, matter, and energy. (1Pet 2:20, Rev 13:8)

    Heb 10:14-18 . . For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. "And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

    The part in that quote about remembering has to do with keeping records; i.e. indictments. Well; Christ's crucifixion thoroughly eliminates that particular hazard.

    2Cor 5:19 . . God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them.

    The koiné Greek word translated "counting" is logizomai (log-id'-zom-ahee) which means to take an inventory; i.e. a criminal indictment.

    The result is that those who have been perfected once and for all time by Christ's offering won't be called to account at the great white throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 simply because there will be nothing on the books with which to accuse them.

    /
     
    #16 Zuno Yazh, Mar 19, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
  17. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    The Atonement of Christ does not make men so that they can "never sin beyond it."

    That is not what Perfection is about in Hebrews.

    While most of your post makes a case for Positional Sanctification, this statement implies men don't sin after salvation, so if you don't mind, please clarify your position on this.


    Sorry, but that is not the case. We see that the Old Testament Saints were redeemed retroactively:


    Hebrews 9:12-15
    King James Version (KJV)

    12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

    13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

    14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.



    The "us" has its first application to the Writer's Hebrew brethren. Christ obtained Eternal Redemption through His blood, His death on the Cross, His offering of Himself. The Writer says "We," Israel, were not eternally redeemed through animal sacrifice, but through Christ's Sacrifice. He is the Mediator of the New Covenant, that by dying...He might redeem the transgressions which were under the Covenant of Law.

    The implication is pretty clear...those who died under the Law died not having received Eternal Redemption (which is only through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus. Their transgressions were not redeemed until Christ died in their stead. They did not receive the promises until Christ died.

    We see this in Romans as well:


    Romans 3:24-26
    King James Version (KJV)

    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.



    In view is a context dealing with all men, not individuals, and the point Paul makes is...


    Romans 3:20-23
    King James Version (KJV)

    20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

    22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

    23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;



    Those who teach that men were eternally redeemed prior to the Cross err.


    2 Corinthians 5:19
    King James Version (KJV)

    19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.




    Sometimes the past tense is used in Prophecy, lol. It doesn't mean we view that prophesied as already accomplished:


    Revelation 20:11-15
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



    I would highly recommend you study Hebrews a little more before seeking to teach from it. So far you have made some tremendous blunders.


    God bless.
     
  18. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    And by the way, what kind of Baptist are you?

    You seem to be more involved in a Messianic group.


    God bless.
     
  19. Zuno Yazh

    Zuno Yazh Member

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    I dare not reveal my Baptist affiliation lest you be tempted to heap blame and criticism on it for my alleged "tremendous blunders". Sorry.

    /
     
  20. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    No, I will just point out your tremendous blunders in regards to doctrine.

    ;)

    I am glad to see you have departed from Catholicism, but you are making some serious errors in regards to Hebrews. Not trying to upset you, just trying to help.

    And as I said, you seem Messianic rather than Baptist, and I have a problem with people posing as Baptists in order to teach their doctrine among Baptists.


    God bless.
     
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