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Abortion and TULIP

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Matt Black, Nov 7, 2008.

  1. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    The Logical impasse is not created by TULIP> it is imposed upon it by people that do not understand it. TULIP describes the ultimate reality of things from the perspective of God as revealed by scripture. It is totally silent as to the means or "human perspective".
     
  2. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Can you elaborate? If "T" is correct, man is conceived a sinner. Sinners need faith in Christ. There are some (even here on the BB) who espouse another "dispensation" of salvation for infants / MRDD, but that is heresy.
     
    #42 webdog, Nov 11, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2008
  3. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Yes indeed; are you (Havensdad) positing two discrete soteriological schemae?
     
  4. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    I don't understand the arguments here.

    Understanding the doctrine of grace allows us to know that God will do as He wills. He chooses of His own will those who will be saved - and He can save children.

    When we look at the Arminian point of view, it's man's choice and before he makes that choice, he's going to hell. This would mean that a child has no way to get to heaven.

    If someone says that God will save the children, then that is the doctrine of grace.
     
  5. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    Man is conceived a sinner. Man is totally depraved from birth. But where there is no knowledge of sin, the sin is NOT APPLIED to a persons account. Only when the "law" came, did we die...even though we were already sinful by nature,

    Are babies condemned for a lack of faith? Of course not. There is no knowledge of such things. Babies sin natures are thereby redeemed by Christ.
     
  6. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    I understand, and agree. Yet I do not think it is enough to say "God does as He wills". Yes, He does. BUT He always acts in accordance with His laws and with His nature. So we must account for the "Why" of an infants salvation, and reconcile that to the rest of scripture.

    Babies do not lack faith. A "lack of faith", by definition, is the failure to act in accordance with God's will: in this case, to reject salvation. Babies are incapable of this. They are "faithful until unfaithful".

    BTW, that idea is copyrighted by me, so no one steal it.
     
  7. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    What? :confused:
    If a baby is spiritually dead (according to "T"), how can it be "faithful until unfaithful"? How is this different than any other person spiritually dead? I thought calvinists believe spiritual death means "spiritual corpse"?
     
  8. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Much confusion here. If one is a sinner, one is spiritually dead. If we are conceived as such, we have the full wrath of God applied to us from conception. Only faith in Christ can reconcile us to God. The sin IS applied to all of those spiritually dead. I've never heard of such a stance as what you have put forth. It doesn't agree with calvinism, nor non...it is in soteriological purgatory.
     
  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    More false presuppositions. If man is spiritually dead...he's going to hell. Since I dont' believe the Bible teaches augustinian original sin, infants are not spiritually dead. Christ's blood covers them. This can be the only viewpoint where infants are not damned to hell. If they are created sinners, they are doomed apart from faith in Christ. We know faith comes by hearing (understanding). Infants are not capable of faith in anything, their minds are not wired yet to reason and understand.
     
  10. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    I do not think that Babies are "Spiritually dead". They are "Spiritually depraved", utter and absolutely wicked by nature. That, by the way, is Total Depravity. It is related to, but separate from, spiritual death.

    Notice:



    Rom 7:8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead.
    Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.
    Rom 7:10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me.
    Rom 7:11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
    Rom 7:12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
    Rom 7:13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure.


    Sin is not applied, where there is no law. So although the Baby is desperately depraved and wicked, there is no "spiritual death" until the child gains knowledge of His actions.

    I think this is abundantly simple, and is the best Biblical explanation.
     
  11. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    According to scripture, although a person is completely depraved, sin has no power over them to kill them without the law. So while born "totally wicked", a baby does not die, spiritually until it reaches an age where it has a "knowledge" of sin.

    Good. I like being different.
     
  12. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    HD, your view still doesn't add up. First, if a child is conceived a sinner, that is as dead as one can get. A sinner is one who sins. Like Adam, one who sins is dead. That's not depravity, that is spiritual death.
    Second, your take on TD is not the accepted calvinist take on TD. It is unorthodox.
     
  13. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    Every theological text book that I have (I have quite a few), define "Total depravity" or "Total Inability" as a state wherein man is totally and desperately wicked by nature, and hence cannot (because he will not) choose God apart from the power of the Holy Spirit. Certainly this is because men are "spiritually dead", but it is IMPOSSIBLE for a child that is ignorant of good/evil (the Law), to be spiritually dead.

    Why did Adam and Eve die? What was the name of the fruit? (Hint: The fruit of the "Knowledge of Good and Evil").

    YES, according to scripture, it is absolutely possible to be totally sinful by nature, but not spiritually dead. Paul is clear that it is not the sin that kills us spiritually, but sinning "with knowledge".

    This can be seen even in our legal system. We make a distinction between one who is unable to comprehend the concept of right and wrong, and one who can. The one who understands the difference, is guilty; the one who cannot, is not, REGARDLESS of the fact that both have done the same crimes.

    Hence, we are born Totally depraved, but die spiritually when we have a "knowledge of the law", or as some put it, at the "age of accountability".


    I see no inconsistency here whatsoever.
     
  14. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    But spiritually depraved means one is deserving of Hell - that one is destined to Hell, indeed, if one is spiritually depraved at one's momento mori. So how does a baby who dies get saved, given your argument?
     
  15. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    But is salvation only comes through faith in Jesus Christ, then a newborn is incapable of such faith - how therefore is s/he saved? I'm willing to accept that grace can save anyone regardless of time of life, but for a newborn this must be - according at least to what you're suggesting - be apart from faith in Jesus Christ, His life, death and resurrection, since infants are incapable of having faith in any of the above. That position I find rather odd...
     
  16. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    How do you know infants don't have faith? I've had 4 of my own. They had faith that I was feeding them something that was not going to kill them. They had faith that when they were in my arms, they could sleep peacefully. They had complete faith in me.

    How does God deal with infants? It's either He sends them all to hell because they didn't have a chance to believe in Him - or else in His mercy and grace, He knows better than us. I'd go with #2.
     
  17. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    That's not faith, that's dependance and trust. It's comical to argue infants can have faith. Should we hook up speakers to preach the Gospel to infants in the womb along with the ultrasound? :laugh:
     
  18. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    Hmm. One of the first sentences my 5 year old said (when she was 2) was "I love Jesus".
     
  19. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    Stop for a minute. Let's look at a scenario...

    A 3 year old is throwing blocks at his sister. The mommy takes away the blocks, and disciplines the 3 year old. The three year old gets mad, throws a fit, and hits his mother in the head with something, killing her. Lets ask and answer some questions...

    #1 Why did the toddler throw a fit? For that matter why was he hitting his sister with the blocks in the first place?
    Answer: They are morally depraved BY NATURE. A spiritually pure child would not act in anger and disobedience towards their parents, nor would they try to hurt their sister.

    #2 Is the toddler guilty of killing his mother?
    Answer: Yes. He killed his mother. He is guilty.

    #3 Is he accountable for what he did?
    Answer: No. Because the toddler is ignorant of the implications of what he has done (He does not know the law: that killing his mother is wrong). However, he still DID IT, and he did it BECAUSE he is spiritually depraved.

    This is the same in terms of spiritual matters. A baby is guilty, depraved, etc. But he is not held accountable for it.

    Now, in terms of "On what basis are babies saved?' Simple. Babies are not guilty of any sin, because they are not held accountable for it. This INCLUDES the sin of unbelief/lack of faith.
     
  20. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    Don't try to interpret scripture by manmade capital and social offences.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
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