Featured Abortion rates among Catholics 29% higher than Protestants

Amen! :thumbsup:

 

Yes, we'd better. Pro-lifers need all the allies we can get!

 

Where I am, the married folks run into large families >6 is the rule....and it is AMAZING how much flack they get from the so called liberal minded people who say it is too much......so in reality you cannot win eh?:laugh:

 

An interesting little fact that Bob Ryan fails to mention:

SDA HOSPITALS PERFORM ABORTIONS !!!!!

Catholic hospitals do not.

 

They got there by the heresy of baptismal regeneration, and therefore that makes them "true Catholics," no matter what you say. You can believe whatever hellish doctrine you want under the Catholic umbrella and still be a Catholic, simply because you were born and baptized into the RCC. Just be sure you go to confession after you commit murder, adultery, theft, etc. The priest will forgive all, and ask you to do your penance. The history of the centuries of the debauchery of the celibate priests is more than adequate for proof of this in the Catholic Church. The moving of one sexual predator from one parish to another parish instead of dealing with the sin is another evidence. If the sin was dealt with the priest would have been turned over to the police. But one after another they were protected under the umbrella of the RCC.

You can commit any sin you want to and be a "true Catholic." Just make sure you confess it to the priest, and do your penance. . Every Catholic knows that.
The term "born again" is not in their vocabulary.

 

I knew as a Baptist I could commit any sin I wanted and I was assured of Heaven because, of course, I had Eternal Security. My Baptists neighbors have on occasion reminde me that their partying ways don't make any difference because they have 'accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior'.

 

You didn't "know" that. If a person is actually saved, born again, he knows that he cannot commit any sin that he wants. That is not the teaching of eternal security and never was.
One who is saved has the dwelling of the Holy Spirit; that is Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit actually resides in him. Perhaps what you saw and witnessed were those who were not saved. There is a difference. Those partying as you describe them would not do so if they are truly saved. I don't drink and I don't smoke and I don't party with them that do. My life has been changed by the power of God. The Holy Spirit dwells within.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Just because you had a bad experience with a Baptist Church don't think that all Baptist churches are the same way. I don't want to do the things you describe because the Holy Spirit resides within and directs me to a different style of living. I know that I am eternally secure because of the promises of God, and what the Word of God teaches.
I also know how much I desire to stay away from sin and draw close to God. That desire is within me because the Holy Spirit is within me.

I don't really expect you to understand that at this stage in your life.
But the truth of eternal security does not give any person a license to sin. It never did.

 

Your logic is faulted. Your argument is no more valid than if I were to say that just because someone makes a profession of faith as a baptist then sins like the devil till the day he dies that he's a baptist because he wrongly assumes that a "belief" in Christ (which may be no more than an intellectual assent to the truth) makes him elect and he is once saved always saved thus can sin all he wants without consequence of damnation. And since they believe that he's really a baptist though he goes to church drunk half the time. That is your argument towards Catholic. These people are no more Catholic Than the Baptist I described is Baptist.

 

Absolutely nailed it again, TS! :thumbsup:

 

My logic is not faulted at all. When I got saved the Holy Spirit came and resided within me. He changed my life. The things I used to do I had no desire to do any longer. If you read history of true Biblical Christianity (not the revised Catholic history) you will find the same thing. Christ changes peoples lives. If there is no change there is no salvation. Scripture teaches that.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
--One of the evidences of a true believer is that he keeps the commands of Christ. There are many false professions, many pretenders. The Lord knows them that are His. If you have had a bad experience in a Baptist Church, which you have expressed formerly, then don't white wash every Baptist church that way.

 

Actually, it is.

I've heard this testimony by people who where shacked up with people they weren't married to. And to People who got drunk regularily. Both were leaders in a Baptist church. The Drunk worked with kids and the fornicator was a deacon. They have similar testimonies. Would you consider them Baptist? If not then how can you claim someone who doesn't abide by Catholic teaching is actually Catholic? See where your fault lies?

I have. And yes peoples lives change. Like Augustine was a terrible sinner who fornicated and got drunk he became Catholic and his life changed. So whats the difference?

I agree. However, if you have a doctrine of once I'm saved nothing not even sin keeps me from God then you can see where occasionally indulging in sin is no problem. It may be God changed me at that time but backsliding is no big deal.

I agree. How we believe that change occures is a little different between us. You believe that all you have to do is sit back and recieve change. Whereas I believe that change occures as you conform yourself to the will of God with God's grace.

Yes I believe scripture does teach that.

Amen. Note the word Keep. That is an active word. Ie continually keep keeping.

I agree.

Yes both under the guise as Baptist and those under the guise of Catholic.

Yes. Amen.

If yo uhave a bad experience in a Catholic Church, which you have expressed formerly, then don't white wash every Catholic church that way.

 

Your response to DKH answers all of your own objections so it is your logic that is faulty instead of his.

1. You admit that both within Baptists and Catholics there are false professors - how do you know that those "Baptists" you list were not of that group??????? Omniscience? However, it is failure to acknowledge such that forms one pillar of your rejection of eternal security.


2. You admit that new birth actually produces a changed life. However, you cannot claim it produces a sinless life can you? Therefore, sin must be inclusive in this changed life, and the change must be progressive rather than perfect. Hence, there is room for true believers to commit sin over a period of time (David, Solomon, Lot, Peter, Demas, etc.). So the presence of sin cannot be logically used to deny eternal security.

3. Therefore the present tense cannot be interpreted to mean without intermittment sin. Hence, "keep" cannot be interpeted by a solid continuing line _______ but must be interpreted by an intermitting line -- - - ---- - - in regard to keeping commandments or obedience.


4. You admit that you are committed to a works type salvation by the following words:

Whereas I believe that change occures as you conform yourself to the will of God with God's grace.

By that definition the Person and cross is unnecessary as God's grace could just as easily enable sinners to conform themselves to the will of God. However, God justifieth "the ungodly" not the godly as your doctrine teaches.

 

No it isn't. I will provide Scripture for you.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
When I became a new creature in Christ my life changed.
That is what happens with all who trust Christ.

No, I don't. Rarely have I seen a Baptist pastor indited or accused with the things that you have mentioned. In fact in all my years of ministry I personally have never met one. That doesn't mean they don't exist, it means it is rare.
However, the scandals among the Roman Catholic Church have made not only national headlines but international headlines--all sorts of sex scandals in many different nations all over this world--all well documented. Priests from various backgrounds in different nations have fallen one after another into gross immorality. Some of the biggest ones are here in Canada, and then second in the U.S. Some of the cardinals were not even allowed to go to the conclave to choose the Pope because of the scandals that surrounded them. In the churches that I am acquainted with no such scandals have occurred. In fact, if anything serious would ever happen among any of our members (leader or lay person) criminal charges would immediately be filed, and if the person would have been a pastor, he would never be allowed to be a pastor again. With the RCC, they simply cover it up, and move the priest to another parish! It is appalling! Horrible.

I doubt if Augustine was ever saved in the first place. He did good works, tried to reform himself. So what! There are many "good Muslims" in this world as well. The fact is that Augustine is a heretic.

That is what you do not get. Sin is always a problem. This is only true in the carnal mind of the Roman Catholic who does not understand what salvation is all about. Paul addressed this in Romans 5 and 6:

Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
--It appears you don't believe this verse or the teaching of it.

You good works cannot change you; only the grace of God can change a person. This is where you are wrong, and this is what puts the RCC in the same category as Hinduism and Islam. It is a religion of works.

No you don't believe this. This is a general statement. No man can "continually keep" his commandments, that is, be sinless.
You condemn yourself:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

As I have clearly shown on this thread the RCC does not preach salvation. It is a religion of works, universalism, and not salvation by grace through faith as the Bible teaches. It teaches a false gospel which Paul calls "accursed."
I didn't have a bad experience. I never heard the gospel, or a gospel message, and therefore was not saved. No person is able to be saved by RCC doctrine, for RCC doctrine is opposed to the gospel message. I was saved outside of the RCC church and then remained outside the RCC church for I realized its doctrines were directly opposed to what the Bible teaches.
It was not a bad experience as to people, friends, etc. It was a matter of heretical doctrine.

 

Scripture doesn't prove your logic isn't faulted. All it shows is that a man is a new creature when they recived Christ. And I believe that. However, you logic isn't based on that. Your logic is this step by step. 1. Person acts bad. but calls themself Catholic 2. Catholic goes against Catholic Teaching. 3. But because they believe in infant baptism they are Catholic. Thus Catholic Teaching is bad. Using that same paradigm we can transfer that to baptist 1. Person acts bad but call themselves Baptist. 2. Baptist goes against Baptistic teaching. 3. But because Baptist believe in OSAS they are Baptist. You logic in both cases is faulted.

That is what should happen when someone comes to Christ.

Yeah? Not as rare as you might think. Take jont on the web and you will unfortunatley see the many issues with Baptist Pastors and leaders.

Yes this is true. And Baptist are without their media stain as well. The difference is that not many people care about Baptist whereas Catholics are percieved to be the Face of Christianity by many probably because of the numbers of Catholics out there. It seems to be a world past time called "Stick it to the Catholic". Probably because the Catholic Church also has the most notable and strict stance against things the world wants to do like abortion. Baptist are divided when it comes to abortion and contraceptives. Catholics have a difinitive stance against both. Makes us easier prey.

Many Priest have fallen sure. But not all just like not all baptist pastors have fallen.

Doesn't suprise me due to the state of the Catholic Church in your Country. However, even there there is a growing movement of faithful Catholics standing against Canadian Heterodox Clergy.

As it should be because of their opposition to Orthodox Catholic Teaching. In my mind many of them should have been excommunicated and Expunged from the Land. Note I didn't say exterminate as so many accuse the 4th Lateran council of saying about heretics. They used the same word I just did. Expunge.

And Bishops are now paying the price for that nonsense.

I

I find that funny because Reformed Theology is derived from Augustines thelogical views! But that's easy for you isn't it. Augustine isn't saved. The Pope isn't saved. Rick Warren isn't saved. Any one who disagrees with you isn't saved despite the evidence to it. How does that make you any different than the pharisees of Jesus day? They pretty much said the same thing and when Jesus showed them Miracles they blamed it on the devil. No the only saved people to you even if they show a change in life evidence of the in working of the Holy Spirit is if they hold to your special knowledge of what you consider true a special "gnosis" if you will.

No I get it. That is why I avail myself of God's grace to over come sin rather than just give in to it.

What the carnal mind of the Baptist doesn't understand is when Paul says in Romans 6

As you say "
--It appears you don't believe this verse or the teaching of it."

I never mentioned good works. You are adding to my words. I said to conform myself to the will of God by his grace. Not one mention of good works.

Baptist is a religion of cheap grace and allowance for sin. See, name calling isn't a good idea.

When I say I believe something then I believe it. You can't say I don't because that is just disingenuous.

Obvoiusly you don't believe Jesus when he says

No I admit I need grace and must avail myself of it. but I don't lay down and play dead either as you suggest I do when the scriptures speak against that since I am a new creature in Christ sin must no longer have a reign over my body.

When did I say I have no sin? See you are adding words to me again.

As you have clearly shown you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to Catholics.

 

I had my doubts about the OP source...

Google "The Alan Guttmacher Institute" which is the source of Bob Ryan's claims and you will find that they are a rabidly pro-abortion front group that has been proven to inflate numbers and percentages by factors of 10 times to 100 times to push their agenda.

They are liars with a cause.

The basis for this whole discussion is a big joke.

 

Look TS it is very simple.
A Catholic who is an infant and has some water thrown on him has no change. He is an unregenerate child of the devil as wicked as Satan himself. All people are born into the family of Satan, and thus the necessity of the "new birth" which does not come through baptism. Water does not change the nature of a person. You are deceived if you think water is going to change a person's nature. I am surrounded by unregenerate Catholics who don't have a clue about salvation or the new birth and love to wallow in their sinful lives. They don't even go to church on a regular basis; call themselves Catholics, swear like a trooper, drink, smoke, and who knows what else. That is the typical Catholic that I know. Much of my extended family is that way. They go to church once and a while. But materialism, this world, is much more important to them, then any religion like Catholicism. They don't care. But they were and are "true Catholics" because they were "baptized." Hence, baptismal regeneration.

On the other hand, when a person is actually saved he puts his faith in Christ when he sees his need, as a sinner, for a Savior. The Holy Spirit comes and resides within and takes up residence. His life begins to change because of the work that the Spirit does. This is not a matter of OSAS. It is a matter of what the Spirit does within the believer as opposed to the carnal unregenerate lives of the Catholic whom the RCC considers saved because of the so-called supernatural powers of the water sprinkled on him just after birth. What nonsense is that!

In a Baptist Church, one is not admitted because he believes in OSAS, but rather because he gives a good testimony of salvation, and then he understands why he must be baptized. After he confesses Christ and is baptized, then upon his baptism he becomes a member of the church, and not until then. No child is ever a member of the church.

I don't know what you saw or experienced. I am a member of a small church, and know the members well. None of them smoke, or drink. None of them have a bad testimony. They all live for the Lord. They all show the fruit of the Spirit in their lives.
That is contrary to your experience, to what you say about Baptist churches, and certainly contrary to the majority of Catholics, in fact every Catholic I have ever met. I have never met a Catholic who is born again--NEVER!!!!

Let me repeat what I said:
In the churches that I am associated with, I have never come across a pastor that has been involved in a sexual scandal such as the priests that hit the headlines on almost a weekly basis all over this world. I don't have to search the WEB. I just gave you my testimony. But the damaged goods of the Catholic Church hits international headlines on a regular basis, and has affected thousands if not millions. Their leadership is one of the most corrupt in the world, if not the most corrupt!!

This is pure rationalization for the indignities of the RCC, for their horrible sin that has been exposed recently and hidden for so long. And now you want to hide ti. Is the media and less relenting on Baptists? Hardly? The least little move on Westboro Baptist, which most of us distance ourselves from being Baptist, the media jumps all over them. That is an example. That one man garners a lot of attention, and he is just one man. But there are hundreds, if not thousands, of sexual predators in the ranks of the RCC.

I don't know about all Baptists. I know of the Baptists that I am associated with. As you know there are many kinds of Baptists. But of the Baptists that I am associated I don't know of any. Even of our own members, if one, even one were to engage in the same sinful activities as your priests he would be taken to the police and prosecuted. He would probably serve some jail time. Is that what happens to the RCC priests? No.

But they aren't and the RCC remains as wicked as ever.

I am not reformed and I am not Calvinist. So??

I only made a statement about the Pope, not Rick Warren or anyone else. Why go off the deep end? I have repeatedly said that one cannot believe in RCC doctrine, have a knowledge of salvation, and be saved at the same time. Check the older commentaries. They all with one accord agree that the Pope is either the Antichrist or the False Prophet.

Here is what Pope Francis said:
"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone!"
--There is no grace in that statement; only works; universalism.
The RCC is not a religion of grace but of works. It always has been.

Words, just words. You don't seem to have a clue about what salvation is really all about.

Saying you believe and understanding what you say you believe are two very different things.

They are carnal believing they can be saved by water. It is a superstitious religion very similar to the beliefs of Hinduism in may ways. It is a pagan religion which teaches salvation by works. Paul said that those that teach this message are accursed.