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Featured Abortion rates among Catholics 29% higher than Protestants

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, May 14, 2013.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The new birth is a change of heart about sin - period! A new heart is NEW WANT TO - NEW DESIRES -

    Ezek. 36: A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


    If a person continues with the same heart attitude that loves and serves sin they were never born again, but were mere professors. The new birth is having the moral image of God renewed so that the inward "new man" is created in "righteousness and true holiness"

    Eph. 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    True born again children of God NEVER boast about sin. They always sin more than they want to. This does not mean they are sinless or without sin. Neither does it mean that they get away with sin. They will suffer loss of many things when they sin (assurance, joy, peace, rewards), have internal conflict that produces a "wretched" internal experience (Rom. 7:23) and outward chastening (Heb. 12:5-10) but they shall not suffer the loss of eternal salvation:

    If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. - 1 Cor. 3:15

    False professor go through SELF-REFORMATION of life that may produce the exterior holiiness of a Pharisee (whited seplcures - outside spotless inside full of decay). The word of God does not penetrate the hard heart of false professors (Mt. 13:19 ) and what apparent pentration there may be is SHALLOW as the truth is offensive to them and so they turn against the truth (Mt. 13:20-21). Remember, only one kind of soil was called "good" by Christ in the four soil/heart parable and none other but that one represented true Christians with variious degrees of sanctificaton (thirty, sixty, hundred) and none but that one produced a harvest (Mt. 13:23).
     
  2. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    The whole basis of this thread is a farce. The title compares the percent of sin of one group to another. What is the purpose of that? The idea of Christianity is to change a sinful heart to a heart with God's law written on it. It is about the love of God, the changed lives of individuals, not a mathematical equation.

    Mr. Ryan, really, you need a hobby.
     
  3. Walter

    Walter Well-Known Member
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    :applause::applause:

    With his own church officially condoning abortion I am amazed he started this thread. People in glass houses and all that.
     
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Is that totally true, or are you making a strawman argument?
    Here is the position as stated:
    What door or avenue did the SDA leave open? It seems that they don't condone abortions. What do you have against this position? I don't know but I would assume this was written some years ago.

    Let me ask a hypothetical question.
    Suppose a Catholic is about to give birth to a child where no doctors or professionals are present. There may be a mid-wife, but that is all. At the time of birth there are complications. Only one can be saved. Either the baby must be aborted to save the mother, or the mother will die giving birth. Now remember the mother is no doubt the mother of several other children as well and the wife of a loving husband.
    Are you going to KILL the mother?
    Or ABORT the baby?
    Which choice should the midwife make?

    Someone very close to me was in the that predicament. But we are thankful for modern medicine. The situation was put this way: Either she has a Caesarean section or one or both of them will die.
    Today there is a third option with hospitals and doctors.
    But not everyone has that option.

    Our church is entirely against abortions, just so you know.
     
  5. Walter

    Walter Well-Known Member
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    #45 Walter, Jun 1, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2013
  6. Walter

    Walter Well-Known Member
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    And mabe this will provide more clarity and answer your question better, DHK. There are two separate human lives involved and each are uniquely created by God and deserve the respect and dignity that God intends. Each case is individual but the outcome is always the same. No person has the right to terminate a life regardless of the situation. And your statement that seems to promote the idea that the mothers life is more important than the babies shows that you need to discern your understanding of our unique design and that no one can ever replace another. God knit each one of us in our mother's womb for a purpose and from His love. Only God can determine when earthly life ends since it is only God who creates.
     
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    In other words Walter you are a coward and won't answer my question.
    In blunt terms, in my hypothetical you must make a decision:
    Sacrifice the mother, or sacrifice the child.
    Which do you choose?
    Please answer!
     
  8. Walter

    Walter Well-Known Member
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    Name calling is un-becoming a Christian! Shame on you!

    Apparently your upset because I called you on your false belief that one life was more important than the other. Maybe you can defend that belief biblically?

    I answered the question. The mid-wife delivers the baby. Abortion is the intentional killing of the baby you mentioned in your hypothetical. That is never acceptable. The correct and moral course of action is to attempt to save both. There is no sin if mother or child dies during the heroic effort to save both. It is never alright to murder another human being. God created the baby, God also put the mother in labor, God will determine if the mother lives or not.
     
  9. Walter

    Walter Well-Known Member
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    Doesn't matter. It is still immoral to kill the baby. We all die. Some sooner than others. We may not murder a person, born or preborn.

    I tell you, there are a lot of things I no longer agree with about the Baptist (CBA) church I belonged to for many years. But we did lock arms with Catholics in pro-life marches and prayed with them in front of the abortion mills. I am amazed that some of the Baptist on this board find no problem with the SDA statement condoning abortions for 'moral or medical' reasons and even suggest that the life of the mother can be determined to be more important than the life of the baby and so it is ok to kill the baby. Actually, I am more than amazed, I'm deeply saddened.
     
    #49 Walter, Jun 1, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2013
  10. targus

    targus New Member

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    DHK, I like your hypothetical question - so please allow me to ask it of you...

    Suppose a your wife is about to give birth to a child where no doctors or professionals are present. There may be a mid-wife, but that is all. At the time of birth there are complications. Only one can be saved. Either the baby must be aborted to save the your wife, or your wife will die giving birth. Now remember your wife is also the mother of your other children as well and also your wife and you are a loving husband.

    Are you going to allow your wife to die? Or abort your child?

    What would you instruct the midwife to do?

    And don't forget that your church is entirely against abortions.

    I sincerely wish to know what you would choose.
     
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    It is just semantics Walter.
    You would practice "euthanasia" in allowing the mother to die for the sake of the life of the baby. Euthanasia is still killing the mother. Both are "killing." You have still put importance of one life over another. That choice has to be made in some cases. It seems that you would choose the life of the child over that of a mother for some reason. Perhaps the word "abortion" is simply too ugly a term for you to face. But let the mother pass away. Let her die. Let her be "euthanized." You have still made an ethical and moral choice.
     
  12. targus

    targus New Member

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    Euthanasia (from the Greek: εὐθανασία meaning "good death": εὖ, eu (well or good) + θάνατος, thanatos (death)) refers to the practice of intentionally ending a life in order to relieve pain and suffering.

    By no stretch of the imagination is the death of a woman during childbirth euthanasia.

    The death of a mother in childbirth is due to medical complications - not because she has been deliberately killed.

    On the other hand a baby that is aborted to save the life of the mother is deliberately killed.
     
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    That is the question I put forth to others.
    They won't answer it.
    I will wait until they do.
     
  14. targus

    targus New Member

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    I will answer and I will also give you my wife's answer too since I just asked her...

    Save the baby first - then if possible try to save the mother.

    That a woman may have other children and a husband is not really a consideration since the baby also may grow up to have a spouse and children too if not killed at birth.

    Women have faced the possibility of fatal complications in childbirth since the fall of Adam and Eve.
     
  15. Walter

    Walter Well-Known Member
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    Right on, Targus!

    Abortion is ALWAYS wrong! I'm amazed and saddened that DHK doesn't see anything wrong with the SDA condoning abortions. On one hand they say it should not be performed for 'birth control, gender identity, or convenience'. But then they swing the door wide open condoning abortions for reasons such as 'rape and incest, medical and moral reasons. Goodness knows how those last two reasons can be interpreted. I mean, a woman's mental health caused by an un-wanted pregnancy could certainly be argued to be a 'medical reason'. To quote The Religious Coalition For Reproductive Choice " We are a nation with a rich diversity of religious traditions. Decisions about birth control and abortion are medical decisions and are also decisions of conscience— Wow, I read some of the same language in the SDA statement on abortion! They lament that abortions are sometimes necessary which, of course, is a lie from the pit of hell. The SDA is just another church body that has become part of The Church of Moloch
     
    #55 Walter, Jun 2, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 2, 2013
  16. targus

    targus New Member

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    DHK, your question - and what seems to be your position of justifying abortion to save the life of the mother - causes me to wonder the limits of this moral relativism that you are advocating.

    Let us suppose that someone kidnaps your wife and threatens to kill her...

    Unless you rob a bank for them?
    Kill a complete stranger for them?
    Deny Christ?

    Which of the above would you do or not do?

    BTW - the same sort of scenario applies as in your hypothetical - no one is there that can help you - no police, no friends, etc.
     
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Completely different situation. They may kill her anyway, even if their demands are met. Never give into the demands of a terrorist.
     
  18. targus

    targus New Member

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    So then...

    Never give in to the demands of a terrorist...

    ...but abortion is ok given the right circumstances?
     
  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Is killing the mother (allowing her to die) ok given the right circumstances?
    Or, killing the infant (allowing him to die) instead, ok, given the right circumstances?

    Death is death. Sometimes a choice has to be made.
     
  20. targus

    targus New Member

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    No death is not death.

    In some cases death is a natural part of life - women sometimes die in childbirth.

    In other cases death is the result of the action of others - such as abortion.

    What you are proposing is sometimes called "moral relativism" or "situational ethics".

    I am not saying that it is an easy thing - sometimes doing the right thing is hard.
     
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