According to Dave Hunt, It's a Good Thing That I was Arminian First...

This is an extremely inadequate view of Scripture. It cannot be arrived at by Scripture alone. Several examples of this have already been shown. In addition, we must point out that "elect" is used in passages referring to both Jews and Gentiles, and in Romans 11:7 is used in contrast to Israel. Therefore, we cannot conclude from Scripture that "elect" is only the Jews.</font>[/QUOTE]And the Jews deny that "Christians" are "God's people" as well.

Do you "SEE" a problem here???

There's as much "ignorance" in the church of the relationship between "GOD/ISRAEL",

as there is among the JEWS of the relationship between "JESUS/CHURCH".

Israel was Chosen as a "NATION", and people chosen only from that Nation. (literal seed)

The Church is chosen from "ALL NATIONS".

To Israel, God says "YOU WILL".

To the Church it's "WHOSOEVER WILL".

To Israel, the promises made to Abraham was both "Spiritual" and "literal", literally save thy literal seed.

To the Church, it's only "SPIRITUAL", By faith.

This of course doesn't give a Jew a "free pass" to heaven, Jesus/faith is still the only way, but in "GREAT TRIBULATION" many Jews will accept that fact.

All who believe in Jesus are "Elect", but some who presently are "enemies of the Gospel" will be saved because of the promises made to Abraham, and "NO GENTILE" has the same "promise".

 

I am not interested in who denies what. I am intereested in what God's word says.

No, actually in Exodus 19:6, Israel said "We will."

This is true.

This is true, as well.

 

I think this topic is about David Hunt and that he was an Arminian first. I'll try to keep on subject.

David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas, probably doctors of the church said in their volume "The Five Points of Calvinism" Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1963, page 19, made this comment.

'The basic doctrines of the Calvinistic position had been vigoriously defended by Augustine against Pelagious during the fifth century.'

Go research this and see if I am factual or whether this might be an error.

The other choice is to be a bigot and just say it is not true.

I don't think Drs. Steele and Curtis were Arminians writing for a Presbyterian & Reformed Publishing Company.

'. . .seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened to you.' [Matthew 7:7 & Luke 11:9].

 

If the topic is about Dave Hunt and his arminianism, your post certainly has nothing to do with that.

 

folks,

I am not trying to say anything along the lines of 'look at what I studied' and 'I know what I am talking about' with the sort of attitude I have been accused of.

I was challenged about 'the elect' and did a word search/study on it and was surprised at what I found. If ANYONE bothered to read it, they will find I backed it up with quite a bit of Scripture showing why I came to the conclusion I came to. No one has to read it, but please don't criticize what I wrote until you do!

A couple of other notes: the nastiness of the Calvinists here is not doing your 'cause' any good! If the fruits of the Spirit are what the Bible says they are, you might want to check your standing in Christ and make sure you were predestined to salvation!

Next, it is not a matter of switching theologies to know that God has given us a choice in how we will respond to the work He has done for us and also to say that once saved always saved. It is simply biblical.

In order for Calvinism to be correct

1. God's character of love must be denied
2. God does want a great number of people to perish, contrary to what Peter says
3. What God wants and what He does are at odds with each other, as Jesus mourns "O Jerusalem, Jersalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."
4. Jesus did not die for all sin for all time, contrary to what is stated in Hebrews
5. "Choose this day whom you will serve" has absolutely no meaning.
6. John 3:17 is a lie: "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." (No, I am not advocating universalism, just pointing out a part of John 3:16+ which Calvinism calls a lie)
7. It is possible, nay, probable, that one human being can love another human being, as a mother loving a child, more than God loves that person. In reality, this is inconceivable.
8. The writer to the Hebrews, in begging, "do not harden your hearts" was wasting his time and energy, for it was not up to the people to harden or not harden their own hearts; it had been chosen for them before time began as to whether they would be hard-hearted or not.

That's just a start. Looking again at not only the arguments presented here on the BB, I find myself again coming to the conclusion that Calvinism is heresy and that the fruits of this heretical doctrine historically and currently show it for what it is.

In trying to define the majesty and omnipotence of God in human terms and to human understanding, you have boxed God up and only 'allowed' Him to be what you think you can cope with.

He is ever so much more magnificent; ever so much more powerful and He means what He says in His Word.

"Come to me ALL who labor and are heavy-laden" is either an invitation to all who labor and are heavy-laden or an indication that only the 'predestined' are in that condition. All you have to do is look around to know the second option is false. To say something as silly as 'only the predestined will respond' totally begs the question of what Jesus, who is God, was talking about and who He was addressing in that statement.

Calvinism isn't just false. It is a lie from the pit of hell and its effect on people has been one of confusion and fear since it started. God is not the author of confusion and His perfect love casts out all fear. Those who teach Calvinism and cause this confusion and fear in the hearts of those who listen are going to have a very heavy price to pay when they are confronted by the God they have offended and misrepresented so badly.

 

"It is a lie from the pit of hell"

Who's being nasty?

 

Not nasty. My attitude is one of great sadness. It's the truth.

 

No, it's not a "lie from the pit of hell," Helen. The greatest missionary enterprises in church history are calvinistic. The greatest evangelistic churches in our nation's history are calvinistic. To say it is "a lie from the pit of hell" is absurd, and sadly misinformed, both in terms of theology and history. I can disagree with arminians without calling it a "lie from the pit of hell." I understand that there are some good reasons to be arminian. I am unconvinced by the weight of them, but I have studied Scripture enough with objectivity to note those places. You have not. Your attempt at the use of Scripture is severely inadequate. It does not deal with the words and the progression of thought in the context of the passage. It simply cannot be taken seriously.

You list 8 things, all of which are wrong, or have serious problems.

False. We fully affirm God's love. We could actually say we have a higher view of it, since in our view, his love if effective, not merely an emotional desire.

Not true at all.

This is the case with your view. You say he wants all to be saved, but then you also affirm that he does not save all. This charge is hardly coherent.

False. If you have studied, then you know the issue of limited atonement is one of efficiency, not sufficiency.

False. It has great meaning. Everyone has that choice.

Totally false. We fullly affirm John 3:16f..

False again. You misunderstand love.

False, it has great meaning.

You say, In trying to define the majesty and omnipotence of God in human terms and to human understanding, you have boxed God up and only 'allowed' Him to be what you think you can cope with. But this is exactly what you have done. You have boxed God into something you can deal with. You can't understand how man can have a choice and yet God have determined it. And because you can't understand it, you reject it. You can't understand how God can love someone and not elect them. And because you can't understand it, you reject it. Your whole list of eight points is based on your box, a box that is too small for the God of the Bible.

We, at least I, am willing to let seeming paradoxes stand without resolution in my human mind. You are not, apparently.

You accuse Calvinists of nastiness, but I have seen none. Admittedly, I haven't read everything closely, but I haven't seen nastiness from this side. You have been particularly harsh in yoru comments, and unjustifiably so.

It is very sad to see you continue in the same old misunderstandings after so long a time. It grieves my heart to see someone treat Scripture in such a frivolous manner as you have. Time after time, we have made the case from Scripture. There is not much more we can do. At some point, you have to submit your mind to what God has said.

If God said "He chose you to salvation," then that means He chose you. That doesn't mean he chose a method, or a group. It means He chose you. But you resist because your box for God is too small. Sadly.

In the end, this issue will only be solved by appeals to the correct exegesis of Scripture. Until then, we will continue this useless back and forth that is no farther along now than it was a year ago when you bailed out and promised to not come back. IT doesn't bother me that you are back; it does bother me that the handling of Scripture hasn't improved, nor has your vitriolic language (and I don't mind a good brouhaha from time to time). Just keep it clean and on topic. But "lie from the pit of hell" is unacceptable, and I think you know that. Please refrain.

 

I'm ready to give sister Helen a pass on her statement. I believe she has a great love for the LORD and a zeal for his word. I once leaned toward the arminian position for about 15 years. I just couldn't see that GOD controlled it all and left nothing to chance. Oh happy day when I finally saw that it was all of his grace and none of my doing.

 

Brother James,

If I may speak for Helen and me we do believe the Lord is in control of all things, but reject that He forces people into a relationship with Him through "Irresistible Grace." God does not force Himself on sinners; they must invite Jesus into their lives.

Yes, the Spirit draws sinners to Himself. Yes, His grace does all the work in eternal redemption. Yes, we respond in faith to His love and call because of our great need of Him.

If people do not have faith in Christ they do not enjoy the peace of forgiveness or His resplendent unmerited favor.

 

How does one who is totally depraved and totally inable create faith in himself? How does one who does not seek after God, does not understand spiritual things and is DEAD in trespases and sin bring himself to life so that he can believe?
Is the will totally depraved along with the man or did it somehow survive Adams fall?

 

Wow! That is one of the most vicious things I have ever read on any forum not just the BB. To call the gospel of Christ, salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, "a lie from the pit of hell" is way, way beyond the pale. To say that Christ failed in the atonement, lied about it, and that man has to add something to Christ's (un)finished work is simply unbelievable. </font>[/QUOTE]You are doing it again, sir. I have not said now or ever that salvation is not from grace alone through faith alone. It is. What is a lie is that God has chosen who will be saved from before their births. That is the lie from the pit of hell.

There is nothing we can add to Christ's work. He has done everything. How we respond to that is what makes the difference between heaven and hell for a person.

Do NOT infer I have said things I have not said. You have done that before and are doing it again. Cut it out.


Brother James, I am not arminian. I have done nothing to earn, deserve, or help with the grace God has given me or the salvation He achieved for me. Nothing. Nada. Zero.

But I was given the choice, as we all have been, about how to respond to it. That is not arminian. That is not reformed. That is simply biblical.

Larry, you and I have been around this block too many times for me to take time to respond again. I do think Calvinism is a lie from hell, and you know that. Not grace, not salvation -- these are from God. But the predestination thing and the limited atonement garbage. They are not biblical. I know you think my biblical knowledge and understanding are sadly deficient, and maybe they are. But I know what the Bible has said, and I know God does not lie. We are told to choose. We are told not to harden our hearts. We are invited to come to Him. We are told that MANY are called but few are chosen. All these things fly in the face of Calvinism, and I prefer the Bible.

I know from emails and PM's I have gotten before and recently as well that what you are teaching -- reformed theology -- is responsible for causing a great deal of confusion and fear in many people. That is not from God.

I spend a lot of time reassuring these people that God loves their children and parents and siblings even more than they do and that everyone is invited to believe and that everyone is loved by God equally and that no one is shut out from the get-go.

God is big enough to give us our free choices about Him without it being construed as 'work' on our part. He is big enough to know what we will do and still allow us to have the freedom to do it. He is big enough to have died for us all, erasing every insult to His name forever. He is big enough to be God.

 

Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:


Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

 

Helen,

I asked you to refrain from calling a well established historical theological position a "lie from the pit of hell." Please do so. We don't need that kind of verbiage in this forum.

Second, it doesn't matter what you think. The only important thing is "What does the Bible teach?" You say, What is a lie is that God has chosen who will be saved from before their births. Yet that is precisely what Scripture says. It says that he chose us to be saved from the beginning. It says that he chose us in him before the foundation of the world. The beginning, or the foundation of the world, are necessarily "before their births." It also says that he chose "us," not a method. Therefore, the Bible expressly teaches what you call a lie.

God does not lie, and that is precisely why your position is inadequate to deal with Scripture. It is God who said that he chose people to be saved. We didn't make that up. I can't reconcile it all, but I am certainly not going to deny it.

God does gives us free choices, and in the unsaved, those free choices always result in rejection.

If people are confused, then they can get in line behind Peter who said that in the writing of Paul there are some things that are hard to understand (2 Peter 3:15). I always take comfort in that. I don't understand it all, but even Peter had a hard time with it, so that puts me and everyone else in good company. Theology cannot be determined by whether or not people are confused by it. Theology must be determined by the word of God.

 

TCassidy,

Calvinists believe that man has nothing to do with salvation. If this were true then the Lord would have to force, prod, or make all the moves on the sinner, because the sinner can do nothing. By this theory a man or woman is merely a human automaton.

Faith in the Lord Jesus is man's response to the calling of the Spirit of God. Read Isaiah 65:1, John 1:12, I John 5:10,13. Grace proffered by the Lord comes only from the Triune Godhead [Ephesians 2:8-9]. No sinner can merit this wonderful grace; it comes from God alone.