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ACCREDITED?

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges & Seminaries' started by Paul1611, Oct 6, 2005.

  1. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    Almost all colleges will accept CLEP, but some of the more prestigious ones don't. Harvard is one example.

    They are quite restrictive on granting non-Harvard credit:

    Credit is not granted for:

    * night or extension courses, or courses taken on a part-time basis or for less than a full academic year
    * technical or vocational courses such as journalism, law, agriculture, nursing, business, communications, or courses taken in military service.
    * work done prior to admission in an isolated term, semester, or quarter at another college, unless the college from which the student is transferring has granted credit for that work
    * credit gained by accelerating in an academic year at another college
    * College Level Placement Exam (CLEP), Advanced Placement Exam (AP) results, or any credit earned by examination, even when credited to the student's degree by the college or university from which he or she wishes to transfer. Please note that credit is awarded to transfer students only for course work completed in college or university.
    * summer school courses, except for those of the transfer student's current college or university or courses at Harvard Summer School
    HARVARD
     
  2. Brice

    Brice New Member

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    Ok well outside of the Ivy League, CLEP is a great option to consider [​IMG] . Thanks for the info Stefan. I stand corrected. :D
     
  3. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    It is definitely a great option. I earned 12 hours through CLEP myself. With that, AP, and my comps I took before I came to my current school, I'll be graduating a semester early! The nice thing about it now is that you get your score immediately (on the computer you're using) so long as there is no essay.
     
  4. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    You can have the classes and clep evaluated by a third party college and placed into your record, just go to one that will not referenced the credit that came in on the same page.

    I used to know who would do that.
     
  5. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

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    ===


    We all make assumptions which are not true. IMO many assume things about the relationship of educational rigor to pride. I've seen it several times here without evidence suggested that ignorance is closer to humility than is knowledge.
    But I already have stuck my foot far into my mouth here, so you are not alone. We all do it ;)
     
  6. bapmom

    bapmom New Member

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    Thank you UZ.....I appreciate that. [​IMG]

    And honestly, Im not against a good, hard, challenging college experience. I had one, though not like the preacher boys get Im sure, and Im better for that experience.
     
  7. PatsFan

    PatsFan New Member

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    Rick Walston's book mentions the rumor that Harvard was not accredited. I didn't know anyone seriously thought that to be true. Apparently a few others believed that too, Bapmom. You were not alone.
     
  8. Broadus

    Broadus Member

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    I spent several years in independent Baptist circles (1973-1988), and it was often bandied about that accreditation was unimportant, with Harvard's supposed lack of accreditation repeated as support. I heard it repeated so often that I too assumed it was common knowledge. Not until a few years ago did I find out the truth, so you're not alone, Bapmom.

    Bill
     
  9. bapmom

    bapmom New Member

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    I thank you all for your clarification. [​IMG] Seems to be one more of those "christian urban legends" that gets passed around widely.

    I went to an Independent Baptist Bible college that was not accredited when I first went there, but went through the process while I was attending. I heard quite a few who thought they were compromising, or at least letting someone else decide how we as a college should operate.....and it annoyed them.

    Through the process of accreditation the college did change. Some of their more "hard-line" fundamental stances were softned a bit in order to placate the accreditors. I do not claim that this is a necessary part of the process, just that it took place where I was. This is a big deal for Independents. The look of the college campus changed, too. It had old buildings which were updated and renovated, and they built a new library which is very nice, too. Of course, all this meant tuition went up.

    The only reason I even bring up what Independents tend to think about this, is that the OPer asked in context of Southern versus Independent, and in his profile he calls himself an Independent Baptist. If he intends to stay in the Independent circles, than his question is very valid, and I know you guys agree.....he also might need to think about what his circles will be thinking about this issue.

    Although, let me add for the OPer, really just about the only people who will critique you based on which college you went to are other preachers. The laymen of your church you eventually pastor will probably rarely think of which college you attended, and will probably not care all that much as long as you are preaching and teaching God's Word in a reliable, loving, firm way. (This does not mean that your choice of quality education does not matter.)

    Go for quality, and if that means a good, accredited place, than do it. If it means one who has chosen not to be accredited, but they maintain high standards anyway, than do that.
     
  10. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

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    IMO two important factors in deciding whether one should choose an accredited-- and by accredited I mean by a government approved accreditor-- or an unaccredited school are (1) equivalency of learning, and, (2) utility of the degree earned.

    1) By equivalency it is asked if the learning outcomes of the coursework in a UA school equal (in general) that of an accredited school. But the difficulty in measuring equivalency is resolving who is to do that measuring and how it is to be done.

    I have no doubt that the spiritual qualities of a school do not pivot on the school's accreditational status. But I did not go to school to become spiritual. While I lack much in this area, I daily , sincerely pray, "Make me a man of God, a lover of God, and to that end I surrender all." No one needs to go to an accredited school or any school to learn to surrender to God.

    Neither have I a doubt that the learnings and abilities associated with practicing the ministry can be learned only in accredited schools. In the late 1950's Tim LaHaye was pastor where I was saved. At that time Tim only had a BA from an UA school. But he was marvelous IMO in his study and preaching--though I may not agree with all he has said or written.

    So, if neither spirituality or ministerial learnings occur only in accredited schools, but also occur in UA schools or even in no schooling, then how could the learning in a UA school not be equivalent to that of the learning in an accredited school?

    Remember that I am speaking in generalities about the equivalency of learning between UA and A schools. Quality even among accredited schools may vary, and it certainly does among UA schools.

    BUT IMO one is more likely to be exposed to better teaching in an accredited school than in an UA school BECAUSE the former's curricula is examined by qualified members of an accreditational team. The quality of the accredited school is measured by the accreditor. How is this done?

    As an example, I urge interested parties to get on the TRACS website-- and remember that the accreditor TRACS is Christian and conservative--and look over the requirements for a school to get TRACS accreditation. Then compare the catalogue of the school one is considering with those TRACS requirements.

    I suggest to you that in TRACS we have qualified and Christian experts in academics who are telling us what a school should have if its education is the really equivalent of accredited schools!!

    Are not these people at TRACS more qualified to evaluate what is usually required for equivalent quality in learning to occur than are others?
    Why should the testimony of a student who has little exposure to the quality of various accredited schools be weighed much when that student says something like "Bosco Bible Skool is the best there is"?? Why should the president's opinion of Bosco Bible Skool who never himself has completed accredited graduate and post graduate degrees be much valued when he says, "The learning at Bosco Bible Skool is equivalent to learning in accredited schools??

    Of course if one just cursorily glances at the TRACS standards, one will see that TRACS requires profs of undergrad studies to have accredited master's degrees in the area of instruction and accredited docs are required for profs of grad coursework. I suggest that these are not just vain requirements, but that there is a real correlation between the academic qualifications of a prof and that prof's competency to teach (neither do I discount the need for giftedness and spirituality) .

    I know that in some independent Baptistic circles (and others too) there is an aversion to getting higher education in accredited schools. I wonder if that position in some cases does not grow out of a conviction that Spirit-guidance substitutes very nicely for higher education.

    That is the impression I once got when I attended a church and the pastor was preaching on Baptism. He was showing that the Baptist and Peter and Paul all baptized. Then, he had his auditors turn to John 4:2. And from the pulpit, in his sermon, using the KJV, he said, "John 4:2 proves that Jesus only baptized His disciples."

    After the service off in a corner I opened my Greek Testament to John 4:2 and showed the preacher, whose responsibility it is to correctly teach God's Word, that as the word for "disciples" in 4:2 is in the nominative case, that point in his sermon about that verse could not be correct.

    But you know, the Greek made no difference to him. He had to be right regardless. Otherwise, how could he truly be Spirit-guided? Such higher educatiuon as learning Greek was to be suspected of "modernism" or whatever!!

    So I suggest that equivalency is best determined by an accreditor and not by students or school officials whose educational background is insufficient to qualify them to make such judgments.

    2) By utility I mean what transferability of a degree or coursework and/or what ministerial positions might finishing the program at one school provide in comparison with graduating from another. EG, how can the future be known by one who assumes he/she never will at all need an accredited degree? How does that one know if God might not desire he/she change to a denomination that accepts only those with accredited degrees? How does that one know that God may not someday urge that one to finish a higher degree in a school which requires accredited degrees as prerequisites?
     
  11. paidagogos

    paidagogos New Member

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    This is an apocryphal story long circulated in Fundamentalist circles. One popular speaker has used this story with unusual success. Many others have repeated it. Being of suspicious mind, I researched this and found both Harvard and Yale along with Dartmouth, Brown and all the other Ivy League schools to be accredited by regional accreditors in addition to numerous professional accreditations. This can be confirmed by any number of sources in your local public library (e.g. Lovejoy’s, College Blue Book, etc.).

    As a brash, young naive idealist, I approached the speaker about this. It turned out to be rather embarrassing because his boss, his boss’ wife and his wife walked up in the middle of our conversation and listened. This is the kind of thing that you want to do privately because you don’t want to embarrass a fellow in front of his wife and boss. (I tell this now to set the record straight because it has not, to my knowledge, been retracted and the record set straight.) However, I expected a different response. He rather indifferently offered, “Well, if that’s true, it sure ruins a good illustration.” At first, he wanted to contest the issue. He said, “That’s strange because I gave this illustration before a large group of public school principals a few weeks ago and no one said anything.” My response was that no one knew and cared to contradict him since this was so esoteric and obscure. Who goes around looking up to see if Harvard is accredited? If someone says not, then most people assume the guy knows.

    So, let’s set the record straight. Verify this from your public library—don’t take my word. Or, check out the following:

    http://www.harvard.edu/siteguide/faqs/faq114.html

    http://www.yale.edu/accred/accred_report.html

    Harvard and Yale are accredited.
     
  12. Plain Old Bill

    Plain Old Bill New Member

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    Well that is good. The place I first heard that Harvard was unaccredited was the Baptist Board.So that rumor is spread all over the plant.So this thread certainly serves a purpose.
     
  13. Plain Old Bill

    Plain Old Bill New Member

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    planet was the word I was spelling, sorry.
     
  14. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    POB,

    That is so sad, it ruined your perfect spelling reputation ...
     
  15. Pipedude

    Pipedude Active Member

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    Add me to the list of former believers in the "unaccredited Harvard" myth. I'm glad you others have set me straight.

    But I still don't like accreditation.

    Because I am bright and can study written stuff, I sat for a day's worth of examinations and received the highest possible "accreditation" in my trade. Let me tell you: I would have made a poor apprentice with as little practical ability as I had that day. But I walked the streets unescorted with a license that qualified me legally to build a mall or hotel. I knew that it was a farce, but I needed the accreditation to legally practice my trade for individual homeowners.

    I think we all can tell stories of blooming idiots who taught in accredited schools.

    Yes, I remember when PCC was offering a theological Ph.D. degree when they didn't even have a Ph.D. on their resident faculty--and don't get me started on the size of the library back then. Calling it a Ph.D. was false advertising; but other than that, caveat emptor. The proof of the pudding is in the tasting, not in examining the ingredients.
     
  16. Broadus

    Broadus Member

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    Accreditation is a minimal standard for an institution, not its highest aspiration. While I think accreditation important, obviously there are other issues that are important. When it comes to a seminary, for instance, I want to know if the members of the faculty are actively involved in putting what they teach into practice in a local church. Believe it or not, some faculty members do little more than attend worship services.

    I want to hear the testimony of grads of that seminary, if the training they received really impacted their ministries or if the faculty were merely "ivory-tower" scholars to whom what they taught was nothing more than theory.

    Again, what about the personal godliness of faculty members. Is teaching only a profession or is it a calling? Their personal lifestyles will evidence which.

    Bill
     
  17. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

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    ===


    I'm sorry if my pain medication is making me slower than usual today. Getting over heart surgery is very stifling and frustrating. But the other option is not very desirable either [​IMG]

    Could you without analogies or metaphors or exceptions to rules , and instead with more direct statements based on the actual relevant data, explain for my poor mind precisely why you would not approve of a school meeting the TRACS standards for accreditation. Why would a school when meeting those standards (ie benchmarks) not give prospective students some assurance of quality?

    www.tracs.org/

    Thanks,

    Bill

    [ October 09, 2005, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: UZThD ]
     
  18. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

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  19. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

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    I'm sorry if my pain medication is making me slower than usual today. Getting over heart surgery is very stifling and frustrating. But the other option is not very desirable either [​IMG]

    Could you without analogies or metaphors or exceptions to rules , and instead with more direct statements based on the actual relevant data, explain for my poor mind precisely why you would not approve of a school meeting the TRACS standards for accreditation. Why would a school when meeting those standards (ie benchmarks) not give prospective students some assurance of quality?

    www.tracs.org/

    Thanks,

    Bill
    </font>[/QUOTE]===


    Hi Pipedude

    Would you please explain to me why you would not like a school to be accredited by TRACS and why that accreditation would not indicate a level of instructional quality over the many schools which could NOT be so accredited because their programs are so very insubstantial?

    Thanks,

    Bill
     
  20. Pipedude

    Pipedude Active Member

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    Your question is loaded somewhat. I didn't quite say the things you've implied.

    Don't take my iconoclasm for more than it's worth. I tend to be libertarian and to resist "one size fits all" solutions and regimentation.

    Those who wish to join an accrediting association are welcome to do so. If they can sell the idea to their prospective customers, let them. I, myself, am not impressed. Nor am I impressed with bad schools and bad instruction, whether it be with accreditation or without.

    I've heard reams of reports from students in accredited schools who waded through garbage in order to pass the required class. And I've seen wonderful things being done in unaccredited schools. And I've seen the reverse in both cases, too.

    I don't deny that accrediting associations accomplish some good. I just don't esteem them very highly. Nor do I esteem most other licensing schemes very highly. I get particularly perturbed when the force of law is put behind them.

    I place a high value on individuality.
     
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