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Featured Acts 10 - Cornelius - Question - Continued

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by LaGrange, Nov 9, 2022.

  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    2 Peter 2:5, ". . . And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; . . ."
    2 Peter 3:6, ". . . Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: . . ."

    Noah and his family were literally saved from the world that was by the water.

    "Immersion" is a literal translation. "Baptize" is a transliteration.
     
  2. LaGrange

    LaGrange Active Member

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    I still don’t understand your interpretation. You quoted verses but you didn’t really explain. Maybe you can say more.

    No. The verse doesn’t say how it was done. No one else interprets it that way except your one version. Do you believe immersion does anything?
     
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The ark saved them from the disruction of the water. But what did the water do to save them how?
    ". . . eight souls were saved by water. . . ."
     
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Verse 38, the word used, ". . . εβαπτισεν . . . ." ebaptisen.
    Tradition transliterates, ". . . baptized . . . ." The Orthodox churches which read the Greek, they immerse. And immerse the babies too.
     
  5. LaGrange

    LaGrange Active Member

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    It flooded the world.
     
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  6. LaGrange

    LaGrange Active Member

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    I don’t have a problem with Baptism of Immersion. I’ve said that before. I understand what you are saying. You are saying that the meaning of the word Baptism is Immersion, therefore, Immersion is the way the eunuch was baptized. I say no. He probably was immersed but it doesn’t say. You could be washed all over (fully wet) without immersion. Another thing you haven’t answered is this: Does Baptism cause spiritual regeneration? If the answer is no then why be concerned about immersion?
     
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Believer's immersion accompanies the gospel and it's commission. And can precede regeneration. Mark 16:15-16.

    Cornelius and his household were regenerated prior to his believer's immersion. Acts of the Apostles 10:30-48.

    Believer's immersion is distinct from the gospel per 1 Corinthians 1:17, ". . . For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: . . ." If the immersion was a part of the gospel that statement would be a lie.
     
  8. LaGrange

    LaGrange Active Member

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    My Comment: Same verse we use to prove baptism is necessary. You cannot get away from Baptism. Right in this verse it says “he that Believeth AND is baptized shall be saved”. It doesn’t say “he that Believeth only”.

    Precede regeneration?

    My Comment: I disagree. If you want to see how I break down these verses, go to post #2, and start about halfway down. It continues on post #3. Acts 10:48 is where Cornelius is regenerated.

    My Comment: In error, you separate preaching and the gospel from baptism. Are you saying Baptism is not part of the gospel? Acts 2:38 says to do penance and be baptized and you will receive remission of your sins and the Holy Ghost. No mention of believing. So based on your logic, Acts 2:38 makes preaching and teaching not important. We say you need Faith and Baptism, whether both are mentioned in a verse or not. Of course, Paul wasn’t putting down baptism in 1 Cor 1:17. There was a potential schism (1 Cor 1:10) going on and that’s why he said the things he did. The apostle’s number one vocation was to preach and teach but that doesn’t mean everything else wasn’t important. In a world where no one had heard the gospel, that’s the first thing that needs to be done. You have to know why you are going to be baptized before being baptized. That is the order in Matt 28:19 - Teach and Baptize. Notice: Right after teach is “Baptize”. Just think: One of the two main things Christ sent the apostles to do and you say one of them doesn’t really matter! It doesn’t do anything! In our church, generally bishops teach and priests and deacons Baptize. 1 Cor 6:11 says, “And such some of you were. But you are washed: but you are sanctified: but you are justified: in the name (Baptize in the Name - Matt 28:19) of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God.” So right in the same book of the Bible, Paul speaks about baptism and how many of the Corinthians had been in mortal sin (1 Cor 6:9-10). Baptism washed away these sins. Also notice the order: washed - sanctified - justified. I mention the order because it’s not in the order you believe. Also, because you seem to think that if believing or Faith or preaching is listed in a verse before Baptism, that what is second (Baptism) doesn’t mean anything. Why not use that same logic with Romans 8:30? It doesn’t mention “sanctified”. It mentions “justified” but not “sanctified”. Is sanctification not important? Is “Called” more important than “Glorified”? “Called” came before “Glorified”. Is “Glorified” not important? It came last.

    My comment in general: Preaching and Teaching are continuous, baptism is not. Baptism is a one-time event (Eph 4:5). It leaves an indelible mark (Seal - 2 Cor 1:21-22). If you are saved by preaching and/or teaching alone and it is a one-time event, is it necessary to hear preaching and teaching after being saved? If you are saved by “believing alone” and it is a one-time event, is “believing” necessary after being saved?
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Does not provide the believer's immersion that the immersion is the essential. But the argument is made, ". . . but he that believeth not shall be damned. . . ." Nothing anywhere about not having been immersed in the written word of God being a matter of not being saved.

    It is that simple. And ends the argument.
     
    #29 37818, Nov 26, 2022 at 10:19 AM
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2022 at 10:24 AM
  10. LaGrange

    LaGrange Active Member

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    My Comment:

    Mark 16:16: He that believeth AND IS BAPTIZED shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (KJV)

    Believeth Not = disobedience or refuse to believe (Strong’s #569)(also see John 3:36)

    It does not end the argument. Not at all.

    The formula for being Saved: Believeth AND Baptism
    The formula for damnation: Believeth Not, therefore, NO Baptism

    What it means it that “believing” (in Christ’s resurrection) must be present at Baptism and, if not, you shouldn’t baptize. If you are not baptized, you will not be saved. It could be interpreted to mean that whoever refuses to believe will refuse to be baptized. The “believing” Jesus was specifically talking about was believing in His resurrection. Many were rejecting Christ’s resurrection. They believed Christ died (Acts 5:30) but did not believe in His resurrection. Baptism is real but it also symbolizes both Christ’s death AND resurrection so you must believe in His resurrection in order to be baptized. In context, Mark 16:11,13,14 says that some heard from witnesses of Christ’s resurrection but didn’t believe. This included some of the apostles. Jesus was saying that, in the future, when they go out to evangelize, those that don’t believe in His resurrection should not be Baptized. It was the same meaning as in Rom 10:9 where you had to believe in the resurrection and this belief was followed by Baptism in Rom 10:13. Believing is the first step but Baptism is where regeneration takes place. It’s the same formula all over scripture - Teach and Baptize (Matt 28:19). It is crystal clear that you MUST be Baptized. It says so in Mark 16:16 and many other places. Matter of fact, John 3:5 says “Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” This verse alone proves that Baptism is the instrumental cause of regeneration. Faith or Believing is not mentioned at all. I could use your logic and say Jesus doesn’t mention “believing” in John 3:5, therefore, “believing” doesn’t mean anything and doesn’t have anything to do with our salvation. But I know believing does mean something and, together with Baptism, saves us just like Mark 16:16 says. In context, after John 3:5, Jesus goes on to say you must “believe” in the famous John 3:16 verse and this is followed by “Baptism” in John 3:22. It’s always the same order: believing followed by baptism and both are necessary.
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That is how you take that passage.
    Are you unable to understand why I do not take it or Romans 10:9 or Romans 10:13 as teaching baptism or confession with the mouth Jesus as Lord or calling on the LORD as required works in order to be saved? Mark 16:16 and Romans 10:13 make the ,very same promise of "shall be saved." Except for Romans 10:13, both Romans 10:9 and Mark 16:16 are stand alone promises. So it makes no sense to me those would be stand alone requirements. If one did not do all three works each promise by each one alone become an empty promise without the other two.
     
  12. LaGrange

    LaGrange Active Member

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    Ok. I am missing something in your understanding. I apologize. It sounds like you are saying that none of the verses work for you. When you were talking about Mark 16:15-16 you said, “Believer's immersion accompanies the gospel and it's commission. And can precede regeneration. Mark 16:15-16.” (Post #27) I asked you about this but I don’t think you explained it. Maybe that’s the missing piece. I don’t know.

    These questions may help me understand:
    At what point are you saved?
    Are you a Calvinist?
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    You seem to have heard me correctly.
    When God does the saving. See John 1:13. The belief John 1:11-12 precedes salvation per God. See Ephesians 1:13.
    No.

    Romans 1:16, ". . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . ."

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4, ". . . the gospel . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . "

    1 John 5:1, ". . . Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . .
     
  14. LaGrange

    LaGrange Active Member

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    My Comment:

    You said:
    God does the saving.
    Belief precedes salvation.
    You are not a Calvinist.

    OK. Right now I am still guessing. Maybe it is something like this:

    1. You hear the word
    2. God begins to work inside you (power) because of the hearing (God is doing it all when you are hearing. All you are doing is passively receiving the Word - John 1:12, Eph 1:13)
    3. You begin believing because God already had begun working inside you through the hearing (power)
    4. You fully believe because God had already worked inside you and you are now saved (your salvation happened before you did any outward thing like Accepting Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour, walking the aisle or getting baptized)

    Is it something like that? If I’m wrong maybe you could put it in steps like I did. I realize I need to get this right before I say anything else.
     
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  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Close. In my case I did ask Jesus as Savior to save me. [Romans 10:13-15] The asking was a work. But it was the believing which is the basis on which God saved me. [Ehpesians 2:8-9] And I have known God since. [Romans 8:16, John 17:3, and 1 John 5:12-13]
     
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