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Featured Acts 2:47 – The Bible vs Human Theology

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Jul 1, 2022.

  1. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    So.... your answer would be "no." You're not going to engage with the Greek in my posts. Ok...

    The Archangel
     
  2. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    Some examples where the Greek adjective, "πᾶς", is translated as WHOSOEVER in the KJV, in relation to salvation, and some other Versions

    John 11:26, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

    John 12:46, "I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness"

    Acts 2:21, "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved"

    Acts 10:43, "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins"

    Romans 10:11, "For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed"

    Romans 10:13, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"

    Some of the other English Versions, use various words, that basically agree with the KJV's WHOSOEVER

    ASV, NKJV, Websters, "whosoever"; NASB, WEB, "whoever"; ESV, NET "everyone"; NLT, NIV, "anyone"

    There can be no doubt, that "πᾶς", is not restricted in its meaning to "all", and does also mean, ANYONE, WHOSOEVER, WHOEVER, EVERYONE", etc, etc.

    Taking the NET Bible reading for John 3:16, "For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life". it is clear that "πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων", is here translated, "everyone who believes", who are from "τὸν κόσμον", the "entire human race"; as opposed to "ὁ δὲ μὴ πιστεύων", in verse 18, who are also from "τὸν κόσμον".

    Some try to misrepresent what Jesus is saying here, by attaching "πᾶς", to those who "πιστεύων", and not to "τὸν κόσμον". What Jesus says is clear, "God so LOVES, with a SAVING LOVE, the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE". However, only those "who BELIEVE", from the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, will be saved; and those "who DISBELIEVE", the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, are already condemned.
     
  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    HOW can I, seeing that you are a MASTER of Greek, and I am only KOINE! :eek::Geek
     
  4. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    You’re still only saying that this version or that version translates this word this way or that way. You still haven’t said why they translate it a certain way.

    The Archangel


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  5. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    Because the Greek adjective allows their translation

    Since neither of us were part of these translators, we cannot know the why they chose the word they did
     
  6. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Let's see....

    John 11:26: πᾶς + the articular participle(s). πᾶς ὁ ζῶν καὶ πιστεύων “all the ones living and believing”

    John 12:46: πᾶς + the articular participle. πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων “all the ones believing”

    Acts 2:21: πᾶς + relative pronoun and a third-class subjunctive verb. πᾶς ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται “whosoever calls.” “Whosoever” is appropriate here because of the subjunctive protasis and the future apodosis

    Acts 10:43: πᾶντα + the articular participle. πάντα τὸν πιστεύοντα “all the ones believing”

    Romans 10:11: πᾶς + the articular participle. πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων “all the ones believing”

    Romans 10:13: πᾶς + relative pronoun and a third-class subjunctive verb. πᾶς ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται “whosoever calls.” “Whosoever” is appropriate here because of the subjunctive protasis and the future apodosis

    As I've stated now numerous times "every one who" is an appropriate translation of πᾶς + article. What it does not mean is "Whosoever." Whosoever is far too indefinite for the grammar. The literal, wooden translation of "all who believe" shows a definiteness.

    πᾶς is not "attached to τὸν κόσμον;" it is attached to ὁ πιστεύων. You're missing a heck of a lot in the grammar, namely the ἵνα. You can't have "all the world" here. The first part of the verse is:
    Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, woodenly translated "In this manner for (because it's a post-positive particle and cannot begin a sentence) loved God the world." So, smoothing it out, it should say "For God loved the world in this manner." Then you get the ὥστε to introduce the dependent clause τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, woodenly translated "the son the unique he gave." Smoothing this out it should say (with the ὥστε) "that he gave his unique son." Now comes the ἵνα clause, "so that" in a final sense. And what is the "goal," so to speak of the ἵνα clause? Salvation. For who? "All the ones believing," or "everyone who believes."

    Your idea of πᾶς applying to τὸν κόσμον is far outside the grammar. You would have to mix the clauses together and detach the meaning from each one. The three clauses fit together rather handsomely, but they don't address "the world" in the way you want them to.

    You see, John 3:16 says nothing about why or why not any of the "believing ones" believed. It only says salvation is given to the "believing ones." John 3:3 gives us a clue as to why they believe (being born again from above). But, John 3:16 does not speak to such things in and of itself.

    The Archangel
     
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  7. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    I can see that all you are doing as I suspected all along, is to argue from your THEOLOGY, and not from the Greek grammar!

    GOD Loves the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, with a SAVING LOVE. However, He has place CONDITIONS on who can get saved, which is REPENTANCE and FAITH. ONLY those "WHO BELIEVE" will bew saved. BUT, this does not negate the fact that God still LOVES the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE

    John Calvin had no problem in understanding what Jesus says here

    "That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.”

    Now you will probably say that Calvin is wrong, and that he also does not know Greek, and ONLY YOU are the EXPERT!

    John Calvin was NOT a "Calvinist"!

    My end of discussion on this
     
    #47 SavedByGrace, Jul 2, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2022
  8. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    So…. You’re still not going to deal with the Greek…?

    The Archangel


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    not got time to waste with YOUR Greek!
     
  10. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    sbw, how many times can you state this and not once recognize that you have killed grace with your assertion?
     
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  11. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    I noticed you only posted what others have said.... You still haven't been able to tell us why they said what they said from the Greek. You did a word search for what you thought the underlying Greek was, when I pointed out that not everything was as you assumed it was, you didn't deal with it at all. Then you launch into the ridiculous thing about Calvin and me being a Calvinist. Again, I've not read Calvin at length.

    It seems, though, from this post:
    That you think πᾶς somehow applies to τὸν κόσμον and somehow says "all the world" is quite problematic. Your ranting caps above "ENTIRE HUMAN RACE" show a real lack of understanding of Greek and the surrounding grammar. Maybe you're saying "entire human race" simply from τὸν κόσμον, but it appears (in the post quoted above) that you want to include πᾶς with τὸν κόσμον, which just doesn't work. Perhaps if you'd like, I could share why that is.... again.

    The Archangel
     
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  12. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    I'm still trying to figure out how you can say "there is no past tense in Greek."

    The Archangel
     
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  13. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    if you can read English, I am talking about “τοὺς σῳζομένους”, which is Present Passive Participle. Not talking about the Greek language!
     
  14. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Your uncalled-for animus is noted.

    The Archangel
     
  15. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    you as silly questions because you don't fully read what I wrote! Not the first time either
     
  16. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Well... I don't know what "you as silly questions" means. Language matters, as does care in your language. Now, none of us is perfect; typos do exist. Even the best writer can be unclear at times. But you did say:

    The issue over whether it is active or passive (it's passive) was discussed. And, perhaps this was an overstatement on your part. But saying a word "cannot" have a past tense and saying that it "is not in" the past tense are two entirely different things.

    So, your animosity is misplaced and uncalled-for.

    The Archangel
     
  17. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    lets try it again

    There is NO PAST tense in the Greek “τοὺς σῳζομένους”! it is PRESENT

    by IN TH GREEK, I am here referring ONLY to "σῳζομένους”, where the tense is PRESENT, and therefore CANNOT mean "PAST"

    surely you can understand this?
     
  18. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    It was never about my understanding.

    The Archangel
     
  19. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    Really?

    in #53 you wrote

    I'm still trying to figure out how you can say "there is no past tense in Greek."

    The Archangel

    This is a MISUNDERSTANDING by YOU, as you did not read what I wrote!

    Can you ever admit that you can be wrong?
     
  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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