Featured Acts 26

I'm with Spurgeon that God does have a desire for all men to repent. We just have to remember that actual atonement is different from desire. Salvation is a gift of god and he can give that to anyone.

 

Which would make sense if you believed in contra-causal free will, but since you don't you have a God making all the decisions (ultimately) and thus seemingly contradicting himself over and over.

True. He chose to give it first to the Jew and then the Gentile (Rm 1:16; 11:32). They individually can choose to reject it or accept it. A gift doesn't have to be irresistibly applied for the giver to get all the credit for giving it. And a person who accepts a gift doesn't take credit for getting a gift he never deserved to receive.

 

you should know better than this by now.

That wasn't my point. my point was that God could have showed mercy to all, but he didn't. Man rejecting God doesn't keep God from the power to show mercy to him. If that were true, then God wouldn't be all powerful.

 

The parenthetical word "ultimately" includes all the so-called 'secondary causes' of which God is said to use to bring about all that he has ordained, yes even the morally evil choices of mankind. In your system, it may appear the reprobate is 'freely' choosing to reject the gospel but the REAL cause is because God didn't choose him. The real cause is that he was born with a totally depraved nature given to him by God as a punishment for the sin of Adam. Those are 'secondary causes' which Calvinists speak of in their confessions so as to subtly invoke some sense of separation between God and the evil that He has ordained to come to pass. You can whitewash that view all you want, and I know your view is less "extreme" than some here but 'ULTIMATELY' it all leads to the same thing.

Paul disagrees.

32 "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

The same ALL who are bound over to disobedience are the same ALL who are shown mercy.

That assumes God WANTs to apply his gift irresistibly and can't, which is not our view. God makes an appeal, according to Paul, not a irresistible inward transformation of the will.

 

Verse 6 says For they are not all Israel, which are of Isreal. Israel is refering to God's elect through the blood line of Jacob. God changed Jacob's name to Israel, Gen 32:28. Paul was not wishing himself accursed for the sake of the Israel nation that were not of "Israel, the elect". Many of the scriptures thereafter use Israel as God's elect.

 

As I have stated before, If you do not understand the depravity of man you will never understand the grace of God. We are all of a reprobate mind at times when we turn away from God and lust after the things of the world, and don't kid yourselves, none of us are imune to lusting after the things of the world at times. All of God's elect children are rotten to the core, if not for the imputed righteousness of Christ. God still choose us when we were in that condition. That is the grace of God.

 

not all are shown mercy. That is universalism. People in hell have not received mercy. That verse does not say that he does give all mercy. Read it a little more carefully.

How is this related to what I said? I stated, "Man rejecting God doesn't keep God from the power to show mercy to him. If that were true, then God wouldn't be all powerful." It's not. God has the power to save all. The sufficient payment has been made. Your language of the use of "irresistible" makes God paying the penalty of sin and applying that penalty as if it were a bad thing. God is the one that saves. It's 100% of God.

Also, man doesn't get saved against his will. Something else you should have known as well.

 

God does not chasten the non-elect, he only chastens the elect. God would not have turned them over to a reprobate mind if they were not his elect. The rod of God is not upon those that are not his, Job 21:9.

 

Have you read Romans 1? It is not talking about the elect.

 

Paul in 2 Thes 3:1-2, about to leave on a preaching tour, ask the brethren at the Thessalonian church to pray that he would be delivered from men who does not have faith. Paul preached to all men that had faith. God says, If they have not the Spirit, they are none of his, Rom 8:9.

 

God only died for those that God gave him, John 6:37-41. John 17:2, As thou hast given him power over all flesh (all mankind), that he should give eternal life to "as many as thou hast given him".

 

And that is question begging because you are presuming mercy shown equals mercy irresistibly applied, which is a point up for debate.

The same All who are bound are the same all shown mercy.

I know that is what you said, and like your argument above, it begs the question by presuming that our view (where God's gift of mercy can be refused) makes God less than all powerful. That is like saying that because you chose not to manually force your 3 year old child to sit at the table for dinner than you aren't strong enough to do so.

You are not understanding then. It's not the application of mercy that i'm objecting to. Its the means and scope of the application which is not biblically supported that I'm objecting to. God is much more merciful than you give him credit for. He has mercy on the world, not a relative select few. He should get credit for making merciful provision and a genuine appeal to all man, not just a relative few.

Sure he does. His will is to be a stubborn rebellious sinner. God changes his will irresistibly to match His will. If I drug someone who is unwilling to get in my car so as to change their will wouldn't you call that 'against their will?' What you have to ask yourself is what makes someone's will their own? They determine it. You have NOTHING in your system on which to base any sense of independent human will. Its all God's will in your system. Its God's will they reject because HE determined their totally depraved nature and it is His will they accept because HE determine their regenerate nature. There is nothing about man's will that belongs to them in a deterministic world view.

It's like trying to claim the robot I programmed is free because it does what it was programmed to do. Only if it can do what it has programmed itself to do would it be free. And only God could create a creature with that ability.

 

How else does God give mercy? There is no question begging. God shows mercy. People in hell have not received mercy.

It doesn't say that. Read CAREFULLY to what it says. You are making an assumption that isn't there and is untrue. It's not much "mercy" if they don't receive the benefits of it. In context of our discussion, we are speaking of mercy from the punishment of sin. You cannot say that someone in hell has received mercy from hell while they are in hell.

not my argument at all. Don't try to change it like you did in the other thread. It's a red herring. Get back to my point. God is the one that saves, not man. Man doesn't save. God paid the price. He shows the mercy. You keep dodging my point. My point is that God 1) has the power to save everyone 2) has chosen not to save everyone. Whether you believe that God chooses whom he will save or that he chooses to save those that believe, he has chosen a plan that will not result in the salvation of all. The only way one can disagree with this is if he are a universalist. I'm not arguing which one of those views is the right one, but the basic truth behind either one of them.

I'm understanding just fine. We are speaking of mercy from the penalty of sin. Leave your red herring alone. People in hell have not received mercy from hell. God could have shown them mercy. He didn't. You say he didn't because they rejected him. Fine. He still chose to not show them mercy from the penalty of their sin.

No, straw man. you know better than this. I guess when one converts from Calvinism he has to go to his straw man hat. We do not believe anyone is saved against his will. To say anything else is to be disingenuous.

Yes, God convicts the heart of the sinner and changes it from a heard of stone to a heart of flesh. This person doesn't come to Christ against his will

Yes, but that's not even close to the same. Stop your stories. Stick to the Bible.

Since the rest was a straw man and diversion of the discussion, I didn't respond to it. Man has a will. Anything to say otherwise is disingenuous of my view. Let's keep keep it to the main point since you don't seem to have a good grasp on my view on man's will.

 

jbh28, I am usually right on to most of the positions that you hold to, but can you give me the scripture that says God desires all mankind to repent?

 

A spirtually DEAD person cannot receive a spiritual gift of grace. Eph 2:5. God's grace of quickening is given when we are still spiritually dead. The, spiritually dead (natural man) cannot receive anything that is of a spiritual nature, 1 Cor 2:15.

 

You've never showed mercy to someone who turned up their nose to you in rebellion? I have.

Just because someone has the ability to reject the mercy I offer doesn't mean I never offered it. Even you believe the gospel appeal is for all man, right? Well, isn't that merciful of God to offer reconciliation to those who don't deserve it? Just because they rebel against it and refuse to accept his appeal doesn't mean he didn't genuinely and sufficiently offer it.

Ok, you are confusing two different points. You said, "Man rejecting God doesn't keep God from the power to show mercy to him. If that were true, then God wouldn't be all powerful." So, you are arguing that because God, being all powerful, COULD have shown mercy irresistibly and didn't that proves he doesn't desire all men to be saved, but that is QUESTION BEGGING, because it presumes it is NOT God's will for man to make a contra-causual free morally accountable decision. Even you acknowledge that God allows man to make a 'choice.' {Its not really their 'choice' in your system because its really God choice and they are merely reacting to the preordained secondary causes as they were made to do, but nevertheless you agree there is a CHOICE made by the agent.} You also agree that God's appeal to be reconcile IS universal in that the gospel is sent to all people.

So, you agree that men must make a choice in response to God's appeal to be reconciled. And you believe they are doing so in accordance with their own will (i.e. what they want to do - never mind that what they want is what God preordained and determined them to want). So, if this is the case then clearly God has expressed His desire for lost men to choose to repent and be saved and that He desire for all of them to do so. Thus, the reason some do NOT is NOT because God DOESN'T WANT them to be SAVED, but BECAUSE they CHOSE not to be saved. They have NO EXCUSE for making the choice they made, like 'God didn't choose me.' Or 'God didn't love me.' Or 'God didn't grant me what I needed.' Or 'God acted like he was inviting me but really didn't want me.' Which would all be legit excuses for someone in the Calvinistic system.

Wrong. I say God did show them mercy by dying for them and inviting them to be reconciled. They didn't get mercy because they rejected the mercy being shown to them.

This may be why we are talking past each other. You think being shown mercy equals heaven and not being shown mercy equals hell, but that assumes the appeal to be reconciled is not a show of mercy.

 

Yes, I have read Romans 1. It is a letter of Paul's written to the called of Jesus Christ, to all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints. I am still saying that you do not understand how depraved the children of God is without the righteousness of Christ. Would you place David as a child of God even though he comitted adultry, lied, and comitted murder? Paul, also, before he was converted, gathering those who followed Christ and put them in prison and even put them to death. Paul and David unterstood the grace of God because they understood the depravity of man.

 

Allow me:

“…This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” - 1 Tim 2: 3, 4

"This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ...”1 John 3:23

"God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent..." Acts 17:30

" Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.” Matt 23:37

"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3:9).

There are more, but that should suffice...

 

I do understand how depraved humans are. So you're saying that Romans 1 is describing all mankind before salvation?

 

Ok, I see what our differences is in language. I'll take a look a bit later. I'm trying to get to a fundamental point, but I see that our usage of mercy was different.