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Acts 8:18

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by LisaMC, Jan 7, 2003.

  1. Headcoveredlady

    Headcoveredlady New Member

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    Hi,
    I have a question for our Catholic friends. I must say I am glad that most of you posting here seem to be readers of Scripture. That is wonderful.
    My question stems from many years as a Catholic. I am not asking this because I hate you. I am not asking this because I am a Protestant because I do not consider myself one.
    My question is why doesn't the Roman Catholic religion teach that one must be born again to see the kingdom of God?
    I spent many years there and I never once ever heard the teaching that I was in need of Jesus' blood to wash me clean. I never was taught that if I was not saved I would go to hell. I am not blaming this on you. I am curious as to why you think this is not taught.

    HCL
     
  2. Daveth

    Daveth New Member

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    [ February 05, 2003, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: Daveth ]
     
  3. LisaMC

    LisaMC New Member

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    CC [​IMG] ,

    Part 1 of my response. The rest will follow.

    You said, and I’ll quote, “And the biggest problem of all is trying to explain them in the limitations of such a forum is just . . . well, and exercise in futility. There just isn’t enough time or space to do it justice.” Must be complicated . . .

    What’s so hard to understand about the New Covenant?

    Hbr 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

    Hbr 8:7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

    Hbr 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

    Hbr 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

    Hbr 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

    Hbr 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

    Hbr 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

    Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

    Really quite simple. Here’s another verse or two for you to ponder:

    1Cr 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

    1Cr 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
     
  4. LisaMC

    LisaMC New Member

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    Continued for CC:

    Yes, we’ll have an intimate union with God in heaven, but who says our union is not intimate on earth.

    Most all things on earth are real, aren’t they? I mean, is the Real Presence a “shadow” of the Real Presence or is it the Real Presence?

    I can agree with that. Just not sure how it relates to the Real Presence. How does the Real Presence solidifiy or improve our spiritual relationship with God?

    Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

    Nope. Just your interpretation of the verse.

    Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1042565549-3665.html#59630

    AR. Faussett commentary on Rev 13:8 @ Blue Letter Bible.org
    8. all that dwell upon the earth--being of earth earthy; in contrast to "them that dwell in heaven."
    whose names are not written--A, B, C, Syriac, Coptic, and ANDREAS read singular, "(every one) whose (Greek, 'hou'; but B, Greek, 'hon,' plural) name is not written."
    Lamb slain from the foundation of the world--The Greek order of words favors this translation. He was slain in the Father's eternal counsels: compare 1Pe 1:19, 20 , virtually parallel. The other way of connecting the words is, "Written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb slain." So in Rev 17:8 . The elect. The former is in the Greek more obvious and simple. "Whatsoever virtue was in the sacrifices, did operate through Messiah's death alone. As He was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world," so all atonements ever made were only effectual by His blood" [BISHOP PEARSON, Exposition of the Creed].

    Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

    1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,


    Rev 13:8 is not saying that the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, but that the names were written in the Book of Life of the slain Lamb before the foundation of the world.
     
  5. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Hi HCL,

    I must say I am glad that most of you posting here seem to be readers of Scripture. That is wonderful.

    Isn't it wonderful? I read my Bible every day.

    This is what the Bishops taught in the last great ecumenical council of the Church (i.e., Vatican II):

    21. The Church has always venerated the divine Scriptures just as she venerates the body of the Lord, since, especially in the sacred liturgy, she unceasingly receives and offers to the faithful the bread of life from the table both of God's word and of Christ's body. She has always maintained them, and continues to do so, together with sacred tradition, as the supreme rule of faith, since, as inspired by God and committed once and for all to writing, they impart the word of God Himself without change, and make the voice of the Holy Spirit resound in the words of the prophets and Apostles. Therefore, like the Christian religion itself, all the preaching of the Church must be nourished and regulated by Sacred Scripture. For in the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven meets His children with great love and speaks with them; and the force and power in the word of God is so great that it stands as the support and energy of the Church, the strength of faith for her sons, the food of the soul, the pure and everlasting source of spiritual life. Consequently these words are perfectly applicable to Sacred Scripture: "For the word of God is living and active" (Heb. 4:12) and "it has power to build you up and give you your heritage among all those who are sanctified" (Acts 20:32; see 1 Thess. 2:13).

    My question is why doesn't the Roman Catholic religion teach that one must be born again to see the kingdom of God?

    The Church does teach that one must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is the Church, and you enter the Church through the sacrament of baptism, by which we are reborn by water and Spirit. The Church, throughout her history, has interpreted John 3 to be speaking of Baptism. Not one Christian interpreted John 3:5 to refer to anything other than baptism until the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century.

    Don't believe me?

    Check out http://www.catholic.com/library/Born_Again_in_Baptism.asp

    I spent many years there and I never once ever heard the teaching that I was in need of Jesus' blood to wash me clean.

    That's unbelievable. I've heard it numerous times in sermons given by various pastors. One basic Catholic prayer is the prayer to the most Holy Trinity:

    O most holy Trinity, Almighty God, we adore You, who give life and vigor to every creature and who shed light eternal where there is darkness. We offer you our hearts, our souls, and our whole being, today and on the days to come, that we may offer perfect praise and love to your glorious Name. Amen.

    O Father almighty, we thank you wholeheartedly for all the blessings and graces You have so generously given us then and now.

    O merciful Christ Jesus, wash away our sins with your most precious blood. Feel the beating of our hearts and make them like your own. Oh, dear Jesus, wipe away our tears and pardon us for our sinfulness. Be with us, O Lord, until our dying day that we may be worthy of your mercy and forgiveness.

    O Holy Spirit, our guide and inspiration, lead us to the right path. And if, on our way, we encounter difficulties and trials, do not allow us to fall or lose hope. Grant us the graces we need daily that we may also share our blessings with our fellowmen. And when the time comes, O Holy Spirit, lead us to the place that is secure, full of joy and eternal peace. Amen.

    I never was taught that if I was not saved I would go to hell.

    You mean to say that you were taught that you were going to heaven, no matter what?

    The first Eucharistic prayer, said at many of the Masses you attended, includes these words: "Father... Grant us your peace in this life, save us from final damnation, and count us among those you have chosen."

    This is a request for the grace of final perseverence in the grace of Jesus Christ.

    God bless you,

    Carson
     
  6. dumbox1

    dumbox1 Guest

    Hi Lisa,

    I have a hunch that trying to carry on a serious discussion on this message board may be like trying to thread a needle in the middle of a barroom brawl -- but I'm game to try it if you are.

    Five issues at once is a bit much, though, so I'd suggest taking them one at a time. Would you mind starting with purgatory?

    If that's OK, I'd like to start by getting a better idea of "where you're coming from" -- particularly about our state during our lives on earth. Would you agree with the following two statements (perhaps with some modifications)?

    1. We humans, while living here on Earth, have some degree of attachment to sin. This “attachment” is manifested in a variety of ways: sin has an attraction for us, we are tempted by it, we ultimately do commit sins at least to some degree, we may fall into sinful habits, some say we have a “sinful nature,” etc.

    2. For many (or maybe even all) of us, this attachment to sin continues throughout our lives on Earth. As we grow as Christians it will lessen, but some residue may remain. You might say that maturing Christians go through a process of sanctification, but that it's not necessary for all those bound for heaven to be completely sanctified during this life.

    Again, I don't want to put words in your mouth, so if you would phrase things differently than I have, please make whatever changes you'd like. Or, if you disagree entirely with one or both of those statements, let me know.

    God bless,

    Mark
     
  7. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

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    Lisa --

    You said, and I’ll quote, “And the biggest problem of all is trying to explain them in the limitations of such a forum is just . . . well, and exercise in futility.

    It is simple. But it does require space and time. Just because something is simple does not mean that it can be explained in a verse or two. And vice versa. Take E=MC2. Very short, right? Therefore, simple, right?

    Hardly.

    What’s so hard to understand about the New Covenant?

    Okay, I am going to kindly but firmly challenge you on that statement. You give me a good definition of the New Covenant. You must break it down into what it is, how does it work, the principles which make it operate, and how it interacts with us as individuals and as the Church.

    Hbr 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

    This DOES NOT explain the above.

    Hbr 8:7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

    This simply promises a New Covenant to replace the Old, which was faulty.

    Hbr 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

    This simply says to WHO the New Covenant is made: the house of Israel (God's people).

    Hbr 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

    This promises that the New Covenant will be a better covenant because it will put the law of God in our hearts. But it still gives no indication of how a covenant works. There is a clue in 8:10, but it is not fully explained.

    Hbr 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

    Again, this shows the knowledge of the Lord will come with the New Covenant, but it does not explain WHAT a covenant is, does it?

    Hbr 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

    Still no explanation of the mechanics and ontology of a covenant.

    Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

    Yupper, dat old one be gone. Now.....what is a covenant?

    Really quite simple.

    Really? You have explained NOTHING to me. What about the 5 points of a covenant? Where is an explanation of this all

    (My point is that as a Fundamentalist I NEVER heard of a covenant or covenantal theology, and as a Presbyterian Calvinist, I was given a completely erroneous and unbiblical definition.)
    Yes, we’ll have an intimate union with God in heaven, but who says our union is not intimate on earth.

    Excuse me for being a bit crisp with you, but you are saying in effect that you have the FULLNESS OF UNION with Christ right now and it will not get any better once you die? You EXPERIENCE everything you could imagine here and now?

    No, Lisa, our union is NOT intimate here on earth. In Heaven, we will experience this union body, spirit, and soul. Here, we may once in a great while have a distant sense of God's leading us or being near us. But that is the exception, not the rule. In Heaven, perfect union is the rule.

    Most all things on earth are real, aren’t they? I mean, is the Real Presence a “shadow” of the Real Presence or is it the Real Presence?

    A shadow is an outline of what truly is. It has no depth, no fullness, no personality, and no color. But it is real. A shadow is exactly what life on earth will look like from the vantage point of the indescribable reality, beauty, and full richess of life in Heaven.

    I can agree with that. Just not sure how it relates to the Real Presence. How does the Real Presence solidifiy or improve our spiritual relationship with God?

    Because our flesh becomes one with His Flesh. We become joined to Him in the reality that is, even if we cannot feel or sense it.

    It improves our spirituality because ---- well, think of it like this. A glass of water. Clear. No color. A drop of dye is put in. The water assumes the color of the dye.

    That is what happens when we recieve the Body and Blood of the Lord. Our lives are "dyed" as it were, by the union of our flesh to His Flesh. We are colored by His righteousness in a real and substantial way, unlike the paradigm you operate under now, which says that righteousness is a mere divine decree in Heaven.

    God does not call something righteous that is not. He does not take a piece of paper, write on it "Brother Ed is righteous" and then pretend I am. No, He does far in excess of that. He adds a real and intrinsic righteousness to me in the form of His Son. And the more I am "dyed" by that righteousness, the more righteous I become.

    Likewise, if you stop adding the dye to the water and begin adding more clear water, the water soon loses its color. This is what happens when we bring sin into our lives. We are "dyed" sinful and unrighteous. And God sees that also.

    As for the comment from the Jameson and Fausset commentary:

    Does God ever "think" something and that something NOT come to be? You and I exist only because we are in the mind of God. If He stopped thinking of either of us for a nanosecond, we would cease to exist. We are not self-existent creatures, and neither is the Creation or the events in time.

    Thus, when God thought of the Crucifixion, it existed, before the foundation of the world. It is the Crucifixion which allowed God to act in grace to the antediluvian and postdiluvian world. The Crucifixion had not happened yet, but because it EXISTED in the mind of God as real (and therefore was INDEED REAL), God could deal with mankind in grace, being kind even to the wicked and unjust.

    Chronological time only made present that which was reality from before the foundation of the universe.

    And, BTW -- since Jameson and Fausset do not claim infallibility, my explanation is every bit as good as theirs is!! :D

    God thinks it -- it exists!!!

    WOW. That must be awesome!!!

    Brother Ed
     
  8. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

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    Mark --

    That's a nice definition, pretty straight forward and simple, but you must remember -- Lisa is operating under a different understanding. It is the belief that once you "accept Jesus"

    ALLLLLLLLLLLL your sins are washed away.

    That's past sins, present sins, and even future sins!!!

    Which makes me wonder what the point of 1 John 1:8 - 9 is then.

    Brother Ed
     
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Brother Ed,
    1John 1:8,9 is not written about salvation at all. The epistle is written to believers. Every believer sins. Every believer must come to God on a daily basis and confess his sins to God to maintain fellowship with God. God doesn't kick you out of his family just because you commit a sin. You don't disinherit your child just because he does something that upsets you. A Catholic that sins doesn't cease to be Catholic until he goes to the confessional. Why would a Christian cease to be a Christian until he confesses his sin to God, his Heavenly Father?
    DHK
     
  10. dumbox1

    dumbox1 Guest

    Hi Brother Ed,

    I haven't defined anything!!! I've just asked a question. I'll leave it to Lisa to answer for herself.

    Thanks,

    Mark

    [ January 14, 2003, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: Mark H. ]
     
  11. LisaMC

    LisaMC New Member

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    [​IMG] Mark,

    Did you have to go and pick the subject I've studied the least. But, this is a good reason to dig deeper into it.

    I'm going to finish my response to CC then maybe he will want to stick to one topic, also. [​IMG]
     
  12. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

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    1John 1:8,9 is not written about salvation at all.

    DHK, my noble opponent, I was not intimating that it is. My point was that if one's sins are "washed away forever" when one "accepts Jesus", then what's the point of confession?

    There's nothing to confess because it's all gone, right?

    Every believer must come to God on a daily basis and confess his sins to God to maintain fellowship with God.

    Why? If all your sins "past, present, and FUTURE are forgiven already, then why would God break fellowship? Is the Blood of Christ insufficient in this area?

    God doesn't kick you out of his family just because you commit a sin.

    Actually, I agree with you on this. That is why the judgement upon apostate believers will be FAR FAR WORSE than that of pagans who never heard. The apostate heard and responded, then turned from the Father. Therefore, his judgement will be far worse, and he is STILL A SON.

    You don't disinherit your child just because he does something that upsets you.

    No, not for something that "upsets" me. You know, something like breaking wind at the dinner table. :D

    But there are things that kids can do that do indeed incur disinheriting. Most of them are rare and it takes A LOT!! A real LOT to get a father to disinherit a child. That is why of all the sins we commit daily, only a couple are mortal. A very, very few.

    A Catholic that sins doesn't cease to be Catholic until he goes to the confessional.

    Right. And he also does not cease to be a child of God either. But he is out of fellowship (venial sin) and if it is a real SCORCHER of a sin (mortal) he has forfeited his inheritance until he repents.

    Why would a Christian cease to be a Christian until he confesses his sin to God, his Heavenly Father?

    Once a Christian, always a Christian. Once you go through the gates of baptism into the kingdom, it is like the Red Sea and the children of Israel -- the waters slam closed behind you and there is no going back.

    But like the children of Israel, there is a land which yet awaits which you may not make if you turn back (apostasy) before the end of your journey.

    See? Typology, my man!!! :D

    Cordially in Christ,

    Brother Ed
     
  13. LisaMC

    LisaMC New Member

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    Continuation complete:

    How so? HINT: “. . . hath given.” Done. Over. Finished. NOT “is giving.”

    Well, I’m not one to question the abilities of God, but just where does this verse say God is still smelling the “sweet savour” of Christ’s sacrifice?

    My point is not in the sacrificed performed by the high priests—but the one sacrifice Christ made. “. . . for He did once when he offered up Himself.” Were the authors of the NT unaware that this sacrifice was ongoing? If not, why do they speak of the sacrifice in past tense?

    Still missing the point. I’m referring to Christ’s sacrifice which has everything to do with personal sin.

    Yom Kippur is the Day of Atonement an annual purging of the sins of a congregation. Christ’s sacrifice was an atoning sacrifice referred to in past tense, not as ongoing.

    Whoever as christians we don’t make sacrifices, as in suffering for His namessake and praising Him?

    Commentary from David Guzik from Blue Letter Bible.org

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1042566575-9467.html#255
    3. (15-16) Our sacrifice

    a. Because we do have an altar (the cross), we do have a High Priest (Jesus), we should be offering sacrifices, but sacrifices of praise, the fruit of our lips

    i. Note the essentials: by Him; continually; sacrifice of praise; the fruit of our lips
    ii. "What proceeds from the lips is regarded as fruit, which reveals the character of its source, as the fruit of a tree reveals the nature of the tree." (Guthrie)

    b. Good works towards others are also a sacrifice well pleasing to God


    This sacrifice is the fruit of our faith made to praise and serve God, NOT made to atone for our sins.

    So, why does the present church choose to see it differently?

    That may be something I don’t find out until I get to heaven. Do you think that sacrifices are going on in heaven?

    Who says?

    Here’s a good site:

    http://www.xenos.org/classes/um2-2.htm

    Some exerpts:

    There were essentially two different kinds of sacrifices: sin offerings, which were offered for moral offenses, and thank offerings, which were offered to express gratitude for God's goodness and blessing.

    Jesus fulfilled OT sin offerings.

    Hbr 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

    Hbr 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

    Hbr 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

    Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


    Hbr 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

    Hbr 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

    Hbr 10:3 But in those [sacrifices there is] a remembrance again [made] of sins every year.

    Hbr 10:4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

    Hbr 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

    Hbr 10:6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

    Hbr 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

    Hbr 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law;

    Hbr 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

    Hbr 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].

    Hbr 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

    Hbr 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

    Hbr 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

    Hbr 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    So, look back at 10:1 & 2, Hbr 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

    Hbr 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

    “ . . . sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.” An it goes on to say, “For then would they not have ceased to be offered?” If the sinner is made perfect, then sacrifices for sins are no longer necessary. Then we come to 10:14, For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    Sin offerings are no longer necessary. However, we are to make “thank offering” sacrifices.

    Peter said to offer up spiritual sacrifices.

    1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

    Paul encourages sacrifices of service:

    Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.

    Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the proportion of faith;

    Rom 12:7 Or ministry, [let us wait] on [our] ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

    Rom 12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, [let him do it] with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

    Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

    Praise sacrifices are encouraged in Hebrews:

    Hbr 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of [our] lips giving thanks to his name.

    Sacrifices of material resources:

    Heb 13:16, But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

    Phl 4:18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things [which were sent] from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.

    I am forgiven. Remember your Presbyterian understanding of Christ’s sacrifice? It is eternal in nature. Just because the grace imputed by Christ’s sacrifice is eternal, it does not mean that the sacrifice must be continually ongoing. The Grace imputed by Christ’s sacrifice is retroactive.

    The shot was not at your apologetic “skills.” It was aimed at your method and approach.

    Oh, that’s a new one! The temple in Heaven had to be cleansed? Would that be past tense or present tense. Was it cleansed? Or is it being cleansed?

    Why choose just one person when He sent the Holy Spirit to guide us all.

    Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

    Mar 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men [it is] impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

    Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

    Luk 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

    Jam 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

    Jam 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

    Works for me!

    A hundred? You’ve counted?

    Of christian denominations the one which most resembles a cult (no offense) would be the RCC. So, how would a poor pagan know that the Pope was right and others like Koresh and Jones are wrong? How would a “pagan” make that determination?

    I don’t know. What do you think?
     
  14. LisaMC

    LisaMC New Member

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    Okay, Mark, now for your questions:

    We sin daily.

    No human or christian is perfect, but . . . I happen to be close to two model christians (how do you define "model christian"--I don't know), one has been a christian since childhood, the other lead a very sinful life until about five years ago. Have you ever witnessed first hand a true conversion? I have, and it amazes me still. My point is, yes as humans they do sin. But, the question is do they sin willfully? Or do they stumble? Are they repentant for their sinful acts? First, I was going to say I don't see that they have develop "sinful" habits, but they both love to eat. So, I won't say that.

    Yes. I would agree with that also. However, I think repentance and thankfulness are a continual thought process for both of them. Back to my two examples above, the "new" christian has God on her mind I would say 98% of her time 24/7, the other probably close to as much. When you are in constant communication with God, I think that sinning is not as likely to happen as when He is placed on the back burner.

    For the record, I do think Christians can lose their salvation.
     
  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    No, the sin is only gone as far as my salvation is concerned. You see it is like a legal transaction. Christ paid the penalty for all of my sins. I accepted His payment when I trusted Him as my Saviour. He took away my sins at that time, putting them under the blood. The payment was made. The justice of God was satisfied. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus" (Rom.8:1). That is my legal standing before God. He will never disinherit me as His child. That is when I became born again (not by baptism, but by His Spirit, through His Word).
    Now in a practical way, no man can live a perfect life. We sin. Though my sin is paid for as far as salvation is concerned, I still come to God on a daily basis and confess my sins to Him that I might have unbroken fellowship with Him. When David sinned with Bathseba, and killed Uriah. He repented of his sin. His prayer is found in Psalm 51. He prayed "Restore unto me the 'joy of my salvation'" He did not say, "Restore unto me my salvation, for he already had that. It was the joy that was gone. Sin had come between him and God. He was praying for forgiveness, not in order to be saved, but in order that his fellowship with God be restored. It is the same way with us.
    DHK

    [ January 14, 2003, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]
     
  16. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

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    Lisa --

    I will close out this part and watch the discussion of the Purgatory issue. I did make a major gaffe in my last post (wasn't thinking clearly). Christ did not go into Heaven to cleanse the heavenly sanctuary.

    My bad.

    He went to make an offering for sins (Heb 10: 12). More specifically, as you rightly noted, He made an offering for the congregation, since that is what YOM KIPPUR is.

    DHK --

    I would agree with you on the fellowship issue. You can see much the same thing in families. When there is friction in the family, there is no fellowship. But there is still that issue of the inheritance, and based on how an inheritance works, I must insist that there are sins which so break the covenantal bond that if they are not repented of, they forfeit the inheritance for us.

    Brother Ed
     
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Again, it must be looked upon as God's perfect justice. My sin is paid for. The payment has been made, and accepted. It was a legal transaction. To go back on it would make God both a liar and unjust. Furthermore the Catholic doctrine of dividing sin into categories is not in the Bible and makes sin subjective, and relegates God to a subjective God, somewhat like Allah--vindictive and cruel. You never know where God is going to draw the line. What exactly in God's mind is a venial sin, and what is a mortal sin. Perhaps God looks at it differently than you do. I don't believe God is like that. God views sin as sin. All sin is offensive to God, and all sin no matter big or small is big enough to condemn one to Hell. James 2:10,

    James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
    --Even if you offend in one point of the law (like lying), you are just as guilty as committing murder and adultery. You are just as guilty as if you have broken all the law. Sin is sin.

    1John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    --This is the definition of sin; simply breaking the law--any of God's laws. There is no difference between big and little laws or big and little sins. All are grievous enough to send one to Hell. That is why Christ died. He died for our sins--all of them.
    DHK
     
  18. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

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    Lisa --

    Interesting developement this morning. I was reading and studying in Hebrews and came across this passage:

    Heb 9:23 ¶ It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.


    I'm not sure exactly what is meant here, but at first glance, it looks like there was some sort of work of cleansing done in Heaven with the perfect and precious Blood of our Savior.

    I just kinda found that interesting.

    Hello again DHK -

    Again, it must be looked upon as God's perfect justice. My sin is paid for. The payment has been made, and accepted. It was a legal transaction.

    The concept of legal justice was unknown to the Eastern Church and the Early Fathers. It is predominantly a Western concept which found its genesis in the writings of St. Augustine. In the East, we do not have much regard for Augustine and our sense of God's salvific work takes a very different tack than that of the West.

    In reality, I have been defending the Catholic position, which is kind of odd for me, since I am NOT a Roman Catholic. I am Eastern Orthodox in communion with Rome. It makes me part of the Church, but it most assuredly DOES NOT make me an adherent of everything they teach regarding certain things. One of these things is mortal sin. We simply do not talk in terms like that. It is a Western concept we are unfamiliar with.

    The Western emphasis is very much upon God as Judge in a Roman courtroom. That is not at all how we view God. It seems that the Western view of God a "Judge" is that of one who condemns or frees. We do not eschew the use of this word, and in our Liturgy, we speak of having "a good answer on the great and fearful day of Judgement", but it is not in the context of the courtroom, but in the context of God revealing what we really are in light of His magnificent glory.

    To go back on it would make God both a liar and unjust. Furthermore the Catholic doctrine of dividing sin into categories is not in the Bible and makes sin subjective, and relegates God to a subjective God, somewhat like Allah--vindictive and cruel. You never know where God is going to draw the line.

    Hmmmmmmm......I would say that you have a point here, although not a major one. Certainly, from the view of the covenant (another oddity -- Easterns speak very little about the covenant!) and the relationship of a father to a son, are there not certain offenses which are more egregious than others. If my son (I have 2 still at home) refuses to take out the garbage, is that the same offense as if he were to physically attack me or his mother? I realize that this is an odd analogy indeed, but the point is the same. In the human realm, not all offenses are the same.

    You are appealing to jurisprudence, allow me to use your figure. Speeding is not the same as murder, but even all killings are not the same, are they? There is murder, cold blooded and deliberate, and there is unintentional homicide. Very different degrees of actions, which are based on intent and desire. If you are going to use the courtroom analogy, then the Great Judge must also take into consideration what our intent and desireswere also, right? I mean, isn't THAT "just?"

    If I, as an Orthodox Catholic, after having made a thought out and willing admission of fealty to the Holy See, go back on my word and leave the Church, am I more or less guilty than you, who left the Church because you obviously had no concept of what She teaches, what it means, its historicity, and all the other things which meke it true in doctrine. I say that I am more guilty, for I came into the Church upon full consent of my will and by making up my own mind, whereas you were born into the Church without your will and apparently not converted to Her as you grew up. Also, I think that God will take into account that you are following your conscience as best you can with the information (or disinformation) which you have been given regarding the Church.

    What exactly in God's mind is a venial sin, and what is a mortal sin.

    The Catholic Church lays this out pretty clearly, which again shows that you never really learned your faith. I'm not even a Roman Catholic and I know this stuff!! [​IMG] (That's a good one!!!-- Honest, I'm not laughing AT YOU, I just find it real humorous!!)

    Perhaps God looks at it differently than you do.

    Perhaps. I am not the see all and be all of doctrinal truth. But I do believe that the Roman courtroom venue as described by Protestantism is not accurate at all. It is not "the Judge". It is the Father dealing with His children. And some are going to be disinherited. Some, who never heard, but kept the Law of God from their hearts (Rom 2. 13 - 16) are going to receive the inheritance.

    The picture you paint of a legal transaction in which God takes a piece of paper with your name on it and stamps "NOT GUILTY FOREVER" on it has never existed in either the East nor the West. Judgement Day is a time that the masks are stripped off and the real you and the real me stand in front of our Father and the games stop. Then we shall know if we are inheritors of the promise.

    I don't believe God is like that. God views sin as sin. All sin is offensive to God, and all sin no matter big or small is big enough to condemn one to Hell.

    I do not see what you are saying here in the greater context of the chapter. Perhaps I need to study it a bit. But you go on to say that Christ died for our sins. This is where my view of the covenant takes me in a different way.

    Christ is the Last Adam. My view is that He died for Adam and to pay for the covenant breaking of Adam. By doing so, He restored the familial relationship of mankind and God, becoming the Last Adam. Now each one of us is responsible to repent and enter into the kingdom, becoming sons and daughters of God.

    Outside of the family, God deals with us as "strangers and foreigners" to the covenant (Eph 2: 19), but inside, we are children beloved. We are dealt with as children, which means that not only are we beloved, but we must also grow in righteousness and holiness and be obedient to the will of our Father.

    You know, I find it interesting to think that pagans cannot commit "mortal sin". (Actually Protestants can't either!!) That is because a "mortal sin" is a sin which is done in full consent of the will, and with FULL KNOWLEDGE, and without coercion from outside sources. In other words, it is really a WILLING APOSTASY. And most likely, very, very few people perform such a willing apostasy.

    Hope you are well. Nice talking with you.

    Brother Ed

    GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!!

    GLORY FOREVER!!

    (The Eastern Orthodox Greeting between two believers upon meeting each other)

    [ January 15, 2003, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: CatholicConvert ]
     
  19. LisaMC

    LisaMC New Member

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    CC,

    That was interesting so I looked up a commentary on it:

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1042644164-249.html

    23. patterns--"the suggestive representations"; the typical copies (see on JF & B for Heb 8:5).
    things in the heavens--the heavenly tabernacle and the things therein.
    purified with these--with the blood of bulls and goats.
    heavenly things themselves--the archetypes. Man's sin had introduced an element of disorder into the relations of God and His holy angels in respect to man. The purification removes this element of disorder and changes God's wrath against man in heaven (designed to be the place of God's revealing His grace to men and angels) into a smile of reconciliation. Compare "peace in heaven" ( Luk 19:38 ). "The uncreated heaven of God, though in itself untroubled light, yet needed a purification in so far as the light of love was obscured by the fire of wrath against sinful man" [DELITZSCH in ALFORD]. Contrast Rev 12:7-10 . Christ's atonement had the effect also of casting Satan out of heaven ( Luk 10:18 Jhn 12:31 , compare Hbr 2:14 ). Christ's body, the true tabernacle (see on JF & B for Heb 8:2; JF & B for Heb 9:11), as bearing our imputed sin ( 2Cr 5:21 ), was consecrated ( Jhn 17:17, 19 ) and purified by the shedding of His blood to be the meeting place of God and man.
     
  20. dumbox1

    dumbox1 Guest

    Hi Lisa,

    Thanks for your answers! It sounds like we're at least in the same ballpark with regard to our sinfulness on earth.

    Can I get a little more "background" with two more questions? These two have to do with prayer. I guess we could use the same format as before, where you agree or disagree, and elaborate if necessary.

    Let's see . . .

    1. If you were to pray for a Christian friend here on earth, asking God to help them/strengthen them/etc. against sin, and what you asked for was in agreement with God's will, then God would effectively "answer" your prayer (although it might not be obvious how he did so).

    To use an example from your post, say that you were worried that your two friends were edging a little too close to gluttony, so you asked God to help them fight any temptation to overeat. (And God's will was in agreement with this -- he doesn't want them overeating either!) Would God in some way strengthen them or otherwise help them? (Probably in some subtle way -- not something as obvious as a bolt of lightning sealing their mouths shut!)

    2. Do you agree that God has "foreknowledge" -- that is, that he knows everything that's going to happen in history? (And, more specifically, that he knows what you're going to pray before you even pray it?)

    Sorry about the questions, but I figure it's easier to find where our common ground is first, rather than wasting time putting together elaborate discussions of issues and then finding out later that we don't even disagree about them!

    God bless,

    Mark
     
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