Featured Actual Atonement vs Potential Atonement

I believe that everyone who is saved is saved by grace through faith, not of themselves, it is the gift of God and not as the result of works.

 

Savedbymercy,

I am interested, now, in you beliefs.

DaChaser said that a sinner is saved by grace through faith, that prior to this faith he is unsaved- a comment that caused you to call him a liar.

You said “lie. The scripture plainly states that even while those Christ died for were enemies to God, by nature, that they had been reconciled to God by the Death of His son Rom 5:10.”

This is what the passage that you offer to support callin DaChaser a liar states:

1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

How do you defend you statement that DaChaser1 is a liar because he sees the unregenerate as under the wrath of God until such time as he believes (prior to actually holding faith in Christ)?

 

I didn’t know if you were asking “why does not every person believe” or “is everyone (who is saved) saved by grace through faith. I answered the latter.

The reason, I believe, that everyone is not saved is that everyone is not effectually called unto salvation. The elect will be saved, why God chooses some and not others is not something that I am willing to speculate other than to say that it is for His glory. So the best answer that I can give you is that everyone is not saved because God has not elected everyone unto salvation.

 

Actually, that was not my question. My question is how can you be interacting in Christ and call another Christian a liar if they hold a view or understanding that is contrary to your own. Galatians clearly states the fruit of the spirit, Ephesians clearly states how to deal with one another in Christ. You did not merely claim that he was mistaking or misinterpreting scripture – you called his statement a “lie.” There is a difference between stating something out of misunderstanding Scripture and deliberately misrepresenting what you clearly understand to be true. (personally, I do not think that DaChaser1 did either).

I am well acquainted with the meaning of reconciliation. This is what I understand you to be saying (please correct me if I am wrong, sometimes this type of correspondence can lead to miscommunication and it is not my intention to misrepresent your words):

Christ died for the sins of the elect and their sins are atoned for, God’s wrath is appeased and therefore they are not under condemnation – this is not dependent on grace through faith, but rather on Christ’s work on the cross. They were made right with God before they were born.

My understanding is that God saves the elect by grace through faith. Apart from faith, we cannot be saved, but by grace God saves through faith. Faith is by the grace of God to the elect.

So, my questions, if you are willing to answer, are threefold.

1. How do you justify stating that another Christian is intentionally misrepresenting scripture by stating what he understands to be false (lying)?

2. Do I understand you correctly, and if not, where am I misunderstanding your words?

3. Where do we disagree on my understanding?

 

I hate to point this out, but by your own standards you are lying.

1 Jn 2:2 does not say that “those Christ died for, by that death God has been propitiated.”

1 Jn 2:2 says “and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins.”

– you have misrepresented what the text actually says by stating your rendering of that text. You interpret it to say that Christ propitiated for the sins; however the text describes Christ as the propitiation of those sins. Although you are not incorrect in your belief, you are incorrect in what the text of the passage states (and in your interpretation of this particular verse). You are therefore a liar by your standard – not mine. Your presentation of 1 Jn 2:2 is not what is actually said in that verse (you have changed the subject of the passage from Christ to "those Christ died for"), which is a false rendering of the verse.

We will leave this at that – you are a liar by your standard of the use of the word. You have altered Scripture to suit your needs - Our discussion definitely ends here. Never mind answering the other two questions - I will not interact with someone who disregards Scripture to the extent that they would actually change the text to prove a point. Christians need to have a higher regard of Scripture that you present in this forum. I will continue praying for you, but I will not interact with you at this time.

 

"There is the pride of the heretic who will utter false doctrines because he thinks his own judgment to be better than the Word of God...he is a disputant but not a disciple. He will insist upon it that his own reason is to be the well-spring of his own beliefs, and he will receive nothing beyond his own reach." (Spurgeon)

 

Savedbymercy has made it abundantly clear that his interpretation of Scripture is the same thing as Scripture itself. The elevation of man’s reason to the revelation of God is one sign of a cult or a false teacher. I am not sure what you are seeking to gain by your question or interaction, but I sincerely doubt that the result will approach edification. As he feels at liberty to rewrite Scripture - for clairty, I'm sure - proceed with caution.

 

The Lutheran Church deals with atonement separate from election, they do not try to reconcile the two - not that I’m Lutheran, although I did take my son to an Easter Egg hunt at a Lutheran chruch once. (I know, I know, pagan rituals – but there be chocolate in them eggs).