Actual Non Cal Doctrine

But, it isn't the "Cal"s that I have seen that have this problem of lacking integrity.

It is with the extreme non-cal's bringing in extreme views and applying them inappropriately with the wonderfully wide brush.

In most threads I have read, the Cal's consistently offer far more verses and far more original language work in support of their views.

Personal acrimony and over heated discussions can always appear, and generally I think it happens when one has very little substance to offer and wants to score some imagined victory.

It is my trust that all will grow in the use of the Scriptures and that various agreements and unity can be found along the way.

 

Mof = matter of fact



Thank you!

 

Face reality, non cals do embrace the what you call extreme and silly acrostics, even on the BB, and I'm referring to LILAC. Just because you "say" you don't believe the tenets of the acrostic doesn't mean a thing concerning others beliefs.

It's a proven fact that each point of LILAC is embraced by non-cals. No one just "made up" the acrostic, it's been around for years, and it is accurate.

Look whose talking lacking grace! The "fella" who came in calling names on another thread and spreading pejoratives. You really need to man up to the way you come into threads calling others names. But hey, don't, if you did, it would mean you gained grace and integrity. :laugh:

God bless you my friend.

 

Exactly. A cursory examiniation of the "LILAC" thread will show you this.

Within it it are two thread links showing how one broad brushes all Cals in derogatory terms, and one named mandym comes in to offer his support of this attempt.

LILAC is an accurate representation of many non-cals. I'll keep mandym's alleged beliefs in mind for the next time he comes into a Cal bashing thread to lend a hand himself towards the effort as he's done in the past, now that he's stated his beliefs are pretty much cal, minus a couple of issues. He'll have to keep track of what he says, and remember what he said here.

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

It doesn't do me much good to have certain folks on my ignore list if you all keep quoting his posts. :laugh:

I noticed he linked to two of my threads but failed to mention that both of them were started in direct rebuttal of negative and false accusations about our views, or a follow up to another discussion.

How many times do you suppose a Calvinist has accused a non-Cal of thinking too much of men, or giving men too much credit, or having a 'high' view of man? It happens ALL THE TIME, and in that thread I prove that in fact the Calvinist view of unbelievers is 'higher' because they give them a good excuse for their unbelief, in much the same way that the insane defense might excuse the guilt of a criminal in our judicial system. This point wasn't rebutted, only ridiculed, as has become the norm around here.

The other link was a follow up from another thread regarding how our theological views affect how we respond to sin in a practical manner. I simply gave my opinion based on my experiences and asked for others to give theirs.

I didn't steal some asinine acrostic off some random web site and repost it as if it were representative of others...And for P4T to use my threads as justification for doing so (1) is hypocritical because on the one hand he claims what I'm doing is wrong while attempting to justify himself for doing it too (as if two wrongs makes it right) and (2) it is silly because it assumes my rebuttal against the constant misconception that non-Cals have a higher view of man is equal to copying and pasting a clearly misrepresentative and inflammatory acrostic.

Now, may I request that people stop quoting ridiculous posts so I don't feel the need to read and respond to them? :wavey:

 

Two views are indicated by acrostics.

TULIP

LILAC

What would you agree with from either one?

 

None as defined.

 

NICE POST.
He has the courage and backbone to openly confess what he believes. he offers what scriptures he thinks support his position. The inconsistency does show up...but that inevitably takes place ...when someone attempts to soften the message to make it seem more pleasing to the natural man...
When he makes this kind of presentation there is enough verses or ideas offered to help someone see their need of salvation...despite the detour into the false realm of mans ability.:thumbs:

 

:thumbs::type::wavey::thumbs:

 

I agree with the OP. It was well stated.
I don't know of anyone that believes in all the points or even most of the points of the acrostic in the link you gave.

 

The lesser known theological flower, the ROSES of Molinism, was first developed by Spanish Jesuit theologian Luis de Molina, for whom the system is named. It attempts to reconcile the dual emphasis in Scripture on God's sovereignty and human responsibility/free will.

While it is not as widely known as Calvinism or Arminianism, it is growing in popularity today, especially among Christian philosophers. Two of the most prominent, William Lane Craig and Alvin Plantinga, both espouse some version of Molinism. It is also growing among theologians, as evidenced by Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary theology professor, Kenneth Keathley's book, Salvation and Sovereignty: A Molinist Approach.

So how exactly does Molinism make compatible these two issues that seem to be at odds?


Theologians and Christian philosophers have been formulating ways to relate these two concepts. C.H. Spurgeon, himself a moderate Calvinist, when asked how he reconciled them, reportedly said, "I do not try to reconcile good friends." Despite their status as good friends and equally affirmed in Scripture, there seems to be some logical separation.

There are various views across the theological spectrum explaining the relationship, despite the seeming insistence that one must be a five-point Calvinist or a died in the wool Arminian. Besides Molinism, Thomism, named for Thomas Aquinas, also attempts an explanation. It states that because God exists outside time, then God's election and foreknowledge occurred "together" so there is no conflict between the two.

Keathley, borrowing from moderate Calvinist Timothy George, uses ROSES to describe the Molinist approach to understanding all the issues involved with the stated goal of balancing both God's sovereignty and human free will. Within Molinism, there are those who are more Calvinistic and those who are more Arminian, but we will focus on Keathley's approach.

R: Radical Depravity
Humanity is depraved. Adam's fall has effect us all and because of that sin we cannot come to God without His initiative. However, the Calvinist terminology seems to imply that man is as depraved as possible, incapable of any good action and that because man has no free choice that sin and Adam's fall, somehow, find their nexus in the choice of God.

Man, while obviously depraved (read the news to see that perfectly illustrated), does not always choose wrongly. Calvinist R.C. Sproul Sr. points out that even Hitler loved his mother. Humans have within them a range of choices that they can (and do) make according to their nature, but their nature will not choose God, apart from His work in them.

If Calvinist take their determinism to the logical end, it seems to place sin at the feet of God. R.C. Sproul, Jr. goes much farther than his dad or other Calvinist want to go when he writes that God is "the culprit" that introduced evil into the world. He continues, "Of course it's impossible for God to do evil. He can't sin. This objection, however, is off the mark. I am not accusing God of sinning; I am suggesting that he created sin."

Obviously, that is not the position of most Calvinists. It is, however, a logical conclusion of the view point that God is the ultimate cause of everything. If you allow no room for human freedom, then you must place responsibility for everything, including the bad, with God.

How do Molinists avoid this conundrum? The propose the central tenant of the system - middle knowledge. While it sounds like an intimidating philosophical term, it is not as daunting as it seems. Molina proposed that God had natural knowledge - He knows everything that could happen. He knows all possibilities. God also has free knowledge - He knows everything that will happen. He has exhaustive knowledge of everything in reality. Those are commonly accepted and discussed ideas about God. Molina added another layer to God's knowledge. He has middle knowledge - He knows everything that would happen. He knows what would happen in all of the possibilities that could happen. It is in His middle knowledge that God sovereignly elects His people.

God chose to create this world, out of all the possible worlds, because He knew this world would bring about the most glory for Him and the most good for His creation. He also knew that this world would be the one in which each and every one of His elect would freely choose to follow Him. So, God sovereignly chooses to make this world a reality and create the situation where all of those who were elect before the foundation of the earth would seek Him when empowered by the Holy Spirit to make that choice.

Molinism disagrees with Calvinism that the individual has no role in actually accepting the Gospel. It also disagrees with Arminianism in that God's election is only a reaffirmation of man's decision.

O: Overcoming Grace
Calvinism has the "problem of the well-meant offer," meaning that while Calvinist preach and extend the Gospel to all of their hearers they actually cannot really mean what they say. When they say "whosoever," they have to mean "whosoever is elect." The doctrine of irresistible grace entails that when God offers listeners a choice in the Bible, He really isn't given them a choice because their action is solely determined based on whether or not God gives them the grace to act. No grace, no action. Does that mean no responsibility?

Non-Calvinist say that salvation is open to whoever hears and receives it. That encounters its own problem. Does that make my choice a good work, and thus make salvation, in some small way, works based? If a friend and I were listening to the Gospel being preached and I responded, but he didn't, did I not do something good that he did not do? Would that give me reason to boast?

The overcoming grace model of Molinism seeks to solve those two problems by asserting that salvation is all of grace and damnation is all of human sin. Keathley explains this using the ambulance analogy. Imagine you wake up and discover that you are in an ambulance being transported to the emergency room. You clearly require serious medical help. If you do nothing, you will be delivered to the hospital. However, if for whatever reason you demand to be let out, the driver will comply. He may express his concern, warn you of the consequences, but he will abide by your wishes. You receive no credit for being taken to the hospital, you receive all the blame for getting out. This is a picture of the Molinist view of salvation.

The Holy Spirit desires my salvation. If I simply allow Him to work, He will bring about salvation in my life. However, if I resist and protest, He will move on. Salvation is completely all of grace. My only action is an inaction of not resisting. Damnation is all of my sin. In that way, I am telling God, "No, I do not want to be saved." The difference between those who believe and those who do not is not found in the believer, to give him something about which to boast. The difference is found in the unbeliever, which gives him a reason to be judged.

The idea of irresistible grace seems to be foreign to Scripture and our experience. We see numerous cases of people being drawn to Christ in various stages only to eventually reject Him. The salvation story for many Christians, involves a period of them rejecting God's grace only to accept it later.

For Christians the concept brings up even more difficult questions. If God's grace is irresistible, why do I still sin? John Piper would argue that we sin because somehow, for some reason in His "hidden will," God desires that sin in our life to bring glory to Himself. Other Calvinists would argue that God's grace operates differently once we are saved. This reasoning, however, neuters their objections to many who embrace an Arminian view of salvation, yet hold to eternal security. Both of those positions argue that something changes at conversion that makes it different than it was before. For one, Christians can resist God's grace in ways they could not prior to conversion. For the other, once the Christian has made a free will decision to come to Christ, He cannot (or will not) choose to reject his salvation. It seems to me a much more strange argument to say that the Christian gains the ability to reject God's grace upon conversion.

 

S: Sovereign Election
Both Molinism and moderate views of Calvinism seek to affirm both divine sovereignty and divine permission. God's permission means that He allows something other than Himself to exist. He gave humans the ability to choose, within certain parameters.

Some strict Calvinist argue that everything flows from a decree of God. The fall of humanity happened because God decreed it to happen. He did not allow it to happen. He was the ultimate cause of it. Most Calvinists (and most people in general) are repelled by that doctrine.

However, the moderate Calvinist faces logical problems within his theology. If God does not cause the fall or sin in our lives, but merely allows it, is His judgment of the sinner conditional - ie based on the condition of our sin. The sinner is damned by God in response to their sins. Calvin, himself, rejected this moderate form of Reformed theology because it abandons the classic view of God's sovereignty. It is very difficult to logically hold the idea that God sovereignly, unconditionally ordains all things, while saying that sinners are judged conditionally upon their sinful acts.

Molinsim would argue that God does sovereignly elect those whom He has chosen, by creating the world in which they would freely choose Him. William Lane Craig explains, "It is up to God whether we find ourselves in a world in which we are predestined, but it is up to us whether we are predestined in the world in which we find ourselves."

While Calvinism and Arminianism seem to ignore and interpret strangely portions of Scripture that do not line up with their theological system, Molinism allows for a robust view of both God's sovereignty and man's free will/responsibility. Scripture often focuses on the two side by side, yet the majority views in Christianity tend to elevate one and dismiss the other.

E: Eternal Life
Despite modern day ideas, historically, Calvinists have struggled with assurance of salvation almost as much Arminians. While an Arminian may worry that he will loose his salvation at some point in the future, a Calvinist may worry that he was never part of the elect and his experience is wrong.


According to Arminian theology, it is possible to forfeit your salvation. Calvin taught that God gives a temporary faith to some of the reprobate. That makes it seem to everyone, including that person, that they have been genuinely saved, but it is a false salvation given from God so that, according to Calvin's chosen successor Beza, "their fall might be more grievous." Some have said, and I agree, that seems dangerously close to divine sadism.

We can find our assurance only in Christ. The objective work of Christ is the only basis for assurance. Our works will not and cannot be the basis of our assurance. However, the works done by God through us can, and should, providing a supporting confirmation to the already present assurance. Scripture also teaches that true saving faith will endure until the end. The genuinely saved person will seek God. They may backslide for a time, but there can be no peaceful backsliders because if the Holy Spirit dwells in them, He will convict and discipline them.

S: Singular Redemption
The TULIP "L" is the most difficult to hold, both Scripturally and emotionally. Again, many Calvin scholars have said that Calvin did not hold to "limited atonement" himself. However, the Arminian view of "general atonement" has problems in that it does not secure salvation for anyone, but merely grants the opportunity.

The general atonement view of the Arminians says that redemption is obtained, salvation is obtained for all but secured for none. The Calvinist limited atonement view says that redemption is secured, salvation is secured for and only for the elect. The moderate and Molinist position says that redemption is provided, salvation is provided for all, but applied only to those who believe.

Holders of limited atonement are forced to conjure up weird explanations for Bible verses that clearly speak of Christ's death being for "all" and the "whole world." General atonement supporters have to be careful not to drift into universalism (everyone is saved because Jesus died for everyone) and argue that Jesus' death did not actually make Him our Savior, but rather open the door to the possibility of Him being Savior.

The idea of singular redemption says that Christ's death is universal in accessibility, but limited in application. Everyone can choose to access it, but only those who make the choice to follow Christ have the benefits of His death applied to their life.

OBJECTIONS

Molinism is just another form of Arminianism - said by a Calvinist. Molinism is just another form of Calvinism - said by an Arminian.
Any mediating position faces this criticism. Since it differs from one, it must be the other. This is a false dilemma and a bit condescending to imply that the only choices one has to explain the relationship between divine sovereignty and human responsibility are those two. It seems that both of those theological camps have been at war for so long, they see enemies in any person who will not whole-heartedly embrace every nuance of every position. Often times they engage in friendly fire within their own camp over minute differences. It is no real criticism to be attacked from both sides.

It is simply a philosophical concept. Why not just believe the Bible?
Yes, it is a philosophical concept. No, it is not simply a philosophical concept. Every way of looking at Scripture and trying to interpret them in a logical, coherent system is in some sense philosophy. You can simply say, "I believe the Bible." But so do Calvinist, Arminians, Molinists, Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals, Orthodox, Methodists, etc. Even Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons say they believe the Bible. It is not a matter of simply believing the Bible. To think deeply about the Bible, you have to explain how concepts like divine sovereignty and human free will interact.

How could God know the things that would happen?
Philosophically, this is called the grounding objection. At this point, Molinist would appeal to mystery.

Mystery is often mentioned by every side. Molinists would say that their appeal is the most satisfactory because it places the mystery within God's attributes, in this case his omniscience, whereas a Calvinist has to place mystery in God's character when he talks about the status of the unelect or in God's will when he speaks of why sin exists in the life of the believer. It is much more fulfilling to say that as a human being, I do not totally understand how God has all knowledge and that knowledge extends to things that would happen than to say I do not know if God really loves those He has not chosen to be elect.

CONCLUSION
If it is not obvious enough at this point, I would call myself a Molinist after a life of dissatisfaction with both the Calvinist and Arminian models and a time of studying and reading about other options. My position is one of humility in that Molinism seems to best explain all of the phenomenon, but I do not and cannot assert that it is the only way or that anyone who disagrees is somehow lacking in the biblical knowledge or relationship with Christ.


http://wardrobedoor.blogspot.com/2010/08/ring-around-roses-molinism-in-brief.html

 

:thumbsup:

Like I said, we do these things, then we sharpen what we believe with Scriptures. No ones theology is perfect, there are adjustments to be made. Especially when one belief contradiocts another, if we are honest, we can see that, and further study, and buffer our beliefs with Scripture.

 

You know of those that believe in some of it, and some embrace several of the points, but usually not the last. It's been seen plenty here on the BB. To deny that is to pretend.

You can deny this too, that's fine, but I know these to be true:

 

Not quite. Let's take an honest assessment of what is really going on with you and what is going on with these threads.

There is nothing asinine about the acrostic other than some in your camps asinine theologies agree with it as well as others who are non-Calvinists.

I'd say I am amazed that you deny that others theologies agree with LILAC but that wouldn't be an honest assessment. I'm not amazed. This is simpy your way of dismissing truth. Let's see, you're faced with something you can't rebuff, so you ridicule and mock the person. Wow. Congrats. :thumbsup:

This is how the one who claims to be numero uno at debating Calvinism, and claims how long he's debated in aggrandizing self, yet you again resort to ridicule? OK. I mean, I can only go by what I'm seeing here.

When faced with the absurdities of anything non-cal in theology, your response is simply to ridicule a person, as you're doing now, or tell someone to run off and prove it, and they've done it many times, then you change the subject, or better yet the infamous "I'm exhausted...I am getting off this merry go round." That's how I've seen you handle being proven incorrect.

I'll look forward to you ending your ridiculing persons and actually addressing the facts to take place. You can't address the facts of LILAC, nor can you honestly admit that others non-Calvinists do reveal these things within their theologies. To do so would shed light upon the fact that these things are believed within your cousin camps.

To say that LILAC is completely false is to be in complete denial.

Take note that several on the BB whom I KNOW ascribe to some of the tenets of LILAC have stayed away from commenting. It's like the roaches when the light comes on, they scurry off and hide.

Another thing, in your thread to demean Calvinists as having a higher view of man than the man exalting arminianism your objective failed. That you think you proved it shows just how delusional you are. You failed to prove anything. In your other thread in an attempt to claim Calvinists don't own up and accept responsibility, which is yet another slight upon the brethren, and meant to demean, you also failed in your attempt there. But we can easily see what's up -it's an agenda of yours, but neither of your two aforementioned threads accomplished their intended objective.

One more thing, the way you debate on here, I'd love to see it live on a platform with an audience, and see what happens when you address others in a debate the way you've done here.

Now, tell me about LILAC (on the other thread) and prove no one believes any of the tenets, with proof, and show me with proof that a persons theology cannot reflect belief in the 5 points. And leave out the ridicule of persons. In other words, actually debate the facts, if you can. I seriously have my doubts you have the ability to do it. To debate IT would be to face the realities of the doctrines of your cousin camps.

- Peace

 

If you would carefully read Calvin you would discover that he thought that God offers two graces -- one general, where the gospel is preached to ALL PEOPLE, just as the Scriptures command -- and one specific, where the gospel preached to all is EFFECTIVE in the regeneration of the elect.

It is the group called "Hyper-Calvinist" that say that the gospel should only be preached to the elect (and how do they know...) or that God's grace is only for the elect. Martin Luther was more the "supralapsarian" (close to "hyper" though that category was yet to be invented when he formulated his doctrines) regarding the sovereignty of God and yet we rarely ever discuss his doctrines around here.

As far as debating the issues with clear intent and/or hearing other positions, what I've found MOST helpful is what you just did -- offer a POSITIVE CASE for one's own doctrine instead of sniping against another's position. We CAN debate these issues with rationality and civility and these issues ARE debated all over, often, without the wars that we often see here on the board. So perhaps it is the attitudes of some rather than the doctrines they hold that is the issue.

 

At present, I have NO doubts at your inability to carry on a reasoned discussion. You simply seem to be unable to discuss in a humble manner without peppering it with digs and dripping with "theological condescension". And yes, I "dig" on you, and will continue to do so until you show some semblance of effort to disagree with other believers using some degree of "agreeableness". This attitude of " I used to be one of yall" and now I have seen the superior light" comes across loud and clear. Discuss, debate, "hash it out", but keep this "superiority posture" internal. Ask questions, seek answers. Even the whipping boys of the mormons and JW deserve basic respect, no matter how much their theology may be in error (or how much YOU think it might be in error, you, me or no one can know the heart of another man as it relates to their actual standing before God). Bashing with a sledge hammer and then ending with blessings or peace is pure cognitive dissonance.