Featured Actuality vs Potentiality?

You and I sure seem to know very different Calvinists. For instance, the majority that I know believe in progressive sanctification. And, believe it or not, 100% believe that the sinner must repent.

Your caricatures are certainly entertaining. And, let's be honest, easier to deal with than what Calvinists actually believe.

 

Get your facts straight, I've never said Cornelius had no sin, I said the text records no sin on his part, only good works. Go examine your buddy Winman's nutty theology for such harebrained ideas of not ever sinning.

Once again, much of the gist of Acts 9, 10, 11 is about joining 'the two folds':

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10:14

12 that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace;
16 and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Eph 2

Cornelius was a sheep of the 'other fold'. To say that he never belonged to God is the height of arrogance.

 

The short answer is that in the Calvinist system God takes pleasure in the Death of the wicked and in the other system, God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
The difference is simple clear manifold and world's-away between the two. Men only die justly for their sins, but in one system, God has provided mercy for all who desire it.
It's not simply THAT they go to hell, it's that given the Calvinist system...their VERY SIN NATURE was part of the decree!!!
Given the Calvinist system, Convicted, it IS GOD'S WILL that men sin. It is God's will that they be BORN already guilty of something they didn't commit, with a nature which they cannot control...and they are then punished for doing something God pre-decreed they would do (and desired they do) with the opportunity to do nothing about it.

In the other system: The OPTION is available to flee the wrath to come. That option does not in any real way exist in the Calvinist system.

In the non-Cal system God's foreknowledge is just that........."knowledge" (it's only that). It is Omniscience:
In the Calvinist system God's foreknowledge isn't "Omniscience" it's "Sovereignty" and "Decree".

 

Factor into this question you have that God divinely designed creatures in His likeness and image who a mind of their own and would desire to be as God. When He finished creating all that was in this world He said it was all very good. So, then, it was good that creatures were designed this way even though most would die in their pride not to accept God as their Lord – why did He do it? I don’t know – maybe for the good, those who were willing to become children of God to exist with Him for eternity. Did He know most these creatures would willingly die their in their sin, because of pride, because of not being willing to die to their self wills to be as God, of course. But here is but One God, despite the wonderful design He blessed us with in creating us creatures in His likeness and image.

But, first, one thing you should know for sure is that He did create us for the good – for that is all that is in Him. Second, consider the alternative – no convicted1. Who are you to complain about it?

 

That's a difficult connundrum for all of us, I think. It is a sick person IMO who doesn't have a hard time dealing with the concept of Hell period. I think we all grapple with it from time to time. There are some answers, and I have some of my own views of "why he created them anyways" etc....but I don't know that any of them settles the matter flawlessly finally without some difficulty.

But, you seemed to be equivocating between the connundrum faced by non-Cals and Cals. Really, it's only a "connundrum" for a non-Cal, in that God doesn't WANT anyone to perish. In the Calvinist system, I think the conclusion is inescapable that the perishing of most is precisely what God wanted from them and perhaps little more.

This is the lynch-pin:

They'll jump on your phraseology of "every attempt" of course, but, in the Cal. system, God has made absolutely no "attempt" at reconciliation with sinners whatsoever. In fact, he in no meaningful sense wants it.

Whatever the difficulties are in the question of the damned: They are completely different for the Calvinist and the Arminian.

 

This is patently false. We, as Calvinists, do make every attempt. Remember that William Carey--the "father" of the modern missionary movement--was himself a Calvinist. He worked hard to be sent to the people of India. He labored hard amongst the people of India for seven years before he saw one convert, not to mention he buried several of his family along the way.

And, in the Calvinist view, God does indeed make reconciliation with man--through Christ, just as the reconciliation is made through Christ in the Arminian system.

We, as Calvinists, argue that God actually makes reconciliation for the elect. Arminians argue differently. But, in both systems, those who believe are reconciled to God.

So, please, stop misrepresenting our views either out of ignorance or a mean spirit (and I seriously doubt with you that it's a mean spirit).

The Archangel

 

This is going to sound confusing, but God doesn't know you are going to reject him until you actually reject him, though in his foreknowledge he knows what you will choose. What God knows in his foreknowledge is not determined (when it comes to what choice you will make). If you choose Jesus, this is what he knows, if you reject Jesus, this is what he knows.

Hell was not made for men, hell was made for the devil and his angels. Men only go there when they willingly and knowingly reject Christ.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

As was pointed out, would you rather not exist at all? Would you rather be a robot without choice?

People do not like not being forced and compelled. If you were in heaven and you were compelled to be good, it would not be heaven.

It's like punching out of work everyday at 3 PM, everything is suddenly better simply because you are free to choose how you will use your time.

There is one huge difference between the two camps. In the non-Cal camp, God loves every single person so much he gave his very Son to die for them that they might be saved. God has done everything he possibly can to save every individual. If men go to hell in the non-Cal scheme, it is because they personally choose to.

In the Cal camp, most folks are going to hell period. They have no choice whatsoever.

 

You misread what I said. "CALVINISTS" do indeed make every attempt, and I do not argue that in the least. Carey being an example. Wrong direct object :tongue3: I said that vis-a-vis Calvinism...GOD doesn't make any meaningful attempt to reconcile those who are foreordained to condemnation. God doesn't "attempt" to reconcile anyone to himself in the Calvinist schema......he just DOES it, and that, irresistibly.

You misunderstood what I was saying to Convicted. I do not believe I misrepresent Calvinism at all.

editted to add:

I always think very highly of people who assume the best about others. That is a mark of a Spirit-filled person IMO btw :saint:

 

These misrepresenting cal posts come from an inability to see that Calvinism as the teaching of scripture deals with the Divine and human side.
They have to try and distort it, or they would believe it .

What is sad is the non cal accuses the biblical God of sinful thoughts and conduct, which is vile indeed.

 

Winman

Another novelty...and yes it is quite confused.

All men outside of Christ go there.....period.

Have a cup of coffee before you post...this is very strange.I am tired here at breakfast, but this is way off....

.

yes there is...:thumbsup:

but he actually saves no one...

here it is again...god has tried but he cannot quite get it done, unless man does something to save himself....this poor god you speak of...he really would like to but he cannot....he has done all he can....can someone please help him out?

as if men would actually choose to go to hell....this is usually where it is said...my god sends no one to hell, they send themselves there.

The biblical God demands 100% holiness and righteousness at the white throne judgement.....Only those who are found to be In Christ have it.

All others are sent to hell by God...justly for their sins.

 

You obviously misread My post as well. I did not say what Archangel mistakenly thought I said, yet, even after I attempted to clear up the misunderstanding you pile on. That, to me, simply seems intentionally deceitful. I am quite sure, that Archangel is that sort with whom I can clear up the misunderstanding. You (I doubt) would have any INTENTION of having the misunderstanding cleared up.

You ignored my clarification. That is either dim or dishonest.

Just looking for a random excuse to use a word like "vile" about those who disagree with you huh.

 

The curse on the flesh, hence the reason Christ being fully human died.

 

Icon....two continuously false allegations you make against the beliefs of those who disagree with you are these:

 

Inspector Javert

AND then you say this...

As you have claimed the right to "clarify"...let me clarify for you here, as you do not understand what I am saying.....

The clear statement Winman and others have made is this.....

God has done......all that he can.......{agreed??? He said this} do I have to post it for you? or do you remember that this is exactly what he posted?

The question for you CO....is.... If GOD has indeed DONE all that He can... and yet a person is not yet saved.....who is going to save him?
You cannot expect God to....if you declare...he has DONE ALL HE CAN:thumbsup: Do you get it now:BangHead:

You cannot pray and ask God to do anymore, if He has done all He could.

So if God is exhausted every means at His disposal{according to this false theology}...who then can save this sinner.

Someone else, or something else must be added to what God has done.

No matter how you slice it....something from outside of god must be added ,with the view put forth by Winman.

The cal prays and asks God to bring conviction upon the sinner and if it be His will to draw them to saving truth, because if the person is yet unsaved we can ask God who saves sinners for His will to be done :thumbsup:

Is this teaching so evil, that you and others must seek at all costs to resist it.As far as i am concerned ..every person I meet is by Divine appointment,and if given any chance for conversation they are going to hear about the the blood of Jesus, and how he has designed to save a multitude of sinners in His Son.

Evidently what we have here is a failure to communicate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2f-MZ2HRHQ

 

Yes, that is what I said, God has done everything possible to save sinners, giving his very Son to save us from our sins. It is exactly what the scriptures show.

Isa 5:1 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:
2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.
3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.
4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

Here God is speaking of Israel, but it applies to all sinners, God has done everything possible to save them, he has given his Son to die for their sins, and he has sent prophets and teachers to call them, but the people would not submit to God.

You will of course reject this, because it refutes Calvinism.

 

Barnes Notes on Isa 5:4

Albert Barnes gets it, you don't.