Adam's Fall = Total Depravity? ; Hardened = Non-Elect?

If you would quit allowing the false premise of Calvinism rule your thinking, you would see that the Scripture you refer to is talking about God choosing Jacob over Esau. To then claim it applies to all men is taking it beyond what God intended.

 

I fail to understand why you would think that Calvinist do not believe this is Jacob.

Maybe its because the passage as a whole talks of more than just the two brothers.

But, I'll give you this much. The passage alone, does not give the full picture of election. But it shows that election is toward a "person" not just a group/nation. One needs to also take into account other passage on election to see that this applies to all believers.

 

Maybe if you didn't use this term, people would be more likely to respond.

I don't know anyone who is a "Free willer." Not all non-Cals believe men have free will; man's will is limited by God but he does have a certain amount of will, which reflects being created in the image of God.

 

Well there are Pelagians, semi-Pelagians, Arminians, and assorted folks in between. All believe in their free will when it comes to Salvation. So what should I use? You tell me which one you prefer and I will be careful to always use that term when I ask questions regarding matters of man's, or woman's, free will when it comes to matters of Salvation.

I am not a Calvinist, as I point out endlessly, yet people still call me one. I do refuse to respond to those who call me a liar though!

Also, I doubt anyone would respond since it would create a problem of theological consistency for them.

 

No sir, you don't create a theological problem any more than we create for you. After all the name-calling, and hateful slurs on both sides, the difference is that we interpret the various Scriptures differently. Both sides have been doing it for generations and will continue to long after both you and I are gone.

 

I don't know any Pelagians - that man is born neutrally moral and can become righteous through his own efforts.

And semi-Pelagian is clearly being used as a club to hit people over the head with, which is one of the reasons I don't usually engage in these discussions. I get tired of the juvenile name-calling.

I am not an Arminian, either. Not sure if there are any here, but if they are, then they believe you can lose your salvation (there are some on the Other Christian Denominations forum and I've just left a debate over this).

You just did it again - asked what term to use and then defined the view. I just finished saying that I don't believe in "free will" as you seem to define it.

I prefer to be called a non-Calvinist or perhaps moderate Calvinist, but that always evokes sarcasm. So you see why I don't like call myself anything here because it evokes sarcasm, condescension, and name-calling (not necessarily from you).

 

Since you are asking a Biblical question one assumes you want a Biblical answer. And since one also assumes most everyone here would call themselves "Christian" then IMO an appropriate title would be "Bible believing Christian".

Now to your question. Since it seems you have gotten little response from your so-called "Freewillers" I will attempt a Biblical response.

A question for Freewillers: Did GOD elect certain from Israel to Salvation in the Old Testament?

Yes, and He did so based on His omnipotent foreknowledge of their decision to either accept or reject His offer.
But I must qualify this as being the answer concerning OT saints and OT salvation.

Now a question for those who enjoy the use of term "Freewillers".

If certain men/women are predestined before the foundation of the world to salvation, how is it possible they are then lost "in Adam" (1Cor 15:22), and then somehow again saved as we learn from Jesus Christ through Paul?

J.C. keeps me so confused.

 

Good

In the passage Paul foresees objection from his readers.

When Paul quotes the OT passage that says...I HATE ESAU....which is just before verse 13-14

His readers

Only two?

Why do you read in to all the context?

but 2 PAUL tells us....not Jarthur...but PAUL tells us your number two will not fit. Maybe you didn't read verse 11.
11And the children were yet unborn and had so far done nothing either good or evil. Even so, in order further to carry out God's purpose of selection (election, choice), which depends not on works or what men can do, but on Him Who calls [them],

They object because man wants to be in control, and this passage tells us God is in control.

:laugh:

Really? wow...thanks for telling me.

Context is king. If you follow the flow of the text, you have no argument.

15For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion.

18So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills.

In this verse he ends his argument he starts in verse 6 and 7. The point is to show that because you are born of Abraham, does not mean you are the elect.

6However, it is not as though God's Word had failed [coming to nothing]. For it is not everybody who is a descendant of Jacob (Israel) who belongs to [the true] Israel. 7And they are not all the children of Abraham because they are by blood his descendants. No, [the promise was] Your descendants will be called and counted through the line of Isaac [though Abraham had an older son].(C)




Paul then goes on to show that God choose who ever he wants.....but not based on works...


11And the children were yet unborn and had so far done nothing either good or evil. Even so, in order further to carry out God's purpose of selection (election, choice), which depends not on works or what men can do, but on Him Who calls [them],


Paul then ends with your verse...

30What shall we say then? That Gentiles who did not follow after righteousness [who did not seek salvation by right relationship to God] have attained it by faith [a righteousness imputed by God, based on and produced by faith], 31Whereas Israel, though ever in pursuit of a law [for the securing] of righteousness (right standing with God), actually did not succeed in fulfilling the Law.(N)
32For what reason? Because [they pursued it] not through faith, relying [instead] on the merit of their works [they did not depend on faith but on what they could do]. They have stumbled over the Stumbling Stone.(O)
33As it is written, Behold I am laying in Zion a Stone that will make men stumble, a Rock that will make them fall; but he who believes in Him [who adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Him] shall not be put to shame nor be disappointed in his expectations.(P)

 

This just shows what he has already stated in verses 6-7 of chapter 9 that...everybody who is a descendant of Jacob.

6However, it is not as though God's Word had failed [coming to nothing]. For it is not everybody who is a descendant of Jacob (Israel) who belongs to [the true] Israel. 7And they are not all the children of Abraham because they are by blood his descendants. No, [the promise was] Your descendants will be called and counted through the line of Isaac [though Abraham had an older son].(C)


Notice also verse 20 of chapter 10..."I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.


That is election of someone other than Israel...FOR(Romans9) God can do as he pleases.

Lets read just a bit more...
7What then [shall we conclude]? Israel failed to obtain what it sought [God's favor by obedience to the Law]. Only the elect (those chosen few) obtained it, while the rest of them became callously indifferent (blinded, hardened, and made insensible to it). 8As it is written, God gave them a spirit (an attitude) of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, [that has continued] down to this very day.(B)
9And David says, Let their table (their feasting, banqueting) become a snare and a trap, a pitfall and a [a]just retribution [[b]rebounding like a boomerang upon them];(C)
10Let their eyes be darkened (dimmed) so that they cannot see, and make them bend their back [stooping beneath their burden] forever.(D)
11So I ask, Have they stumbled so as to fall [to their utter spiritual ruin, irretrievably]? By no means! But through their false step and transgression salvation [has come] to the Gentiles, so as to arouse Israel [to see and feel what they forfeited] and so to make them jealous.
12Now if their stumbling (their lapse, their transgression) has so enriched the world [at large], and if [Israel's] failure means such riches for the Gentiles, think what an enrichment and greater advantage will follow their full reinstatement!

This passage again follows from 9....God can and does harden Jews.

Now note the next verse...

13But now I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I lay great stress on my ministry and magnify my office,

Not my words I posted...the Bible's.

No. They ALWAYS will. That is the heart of being spiritually dead. They will NEVER come to God....always always always reject him.

:laugh:

John 8..
43Why do you misunderstand what I say? It is because you are unable to hear what I am saying. [You cannot bear to listen to My message; your ears are shut to My teaching.] 44You are of your father, the devil, and it is your will to practice the lusts and gratify the desires [which are characteristic] of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a falsehood, he speaks what is natural to him, for he is a liar [himself] and the father of lies and of all that is false.

however........

47Whoever is of God listens to God. [Those who belong to God hear the words of God.] .............(((BUT)))).....This is the reason that you do not listen [to those words, to Me]: because you do not belong to God and are not of God or in harmony with Him.

Now do you believe? My guess is NOT.

 

ok...

IMO...is not from the Bible.

Good

ok

What happen to the Bible?

two salvations?

ok

We are ALL born in Adam (in the flesh)...with a sin nature. The elect are chosen to be saved, because sin has blinded the eyes of all men to the truth of their need for salvation. Election is NOT salvation, but TO SALVATION...where after the eyes are open (born again), one must still believe.

ok

 

Disown

Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

 

What happen to the Bible?
Do you not believe that one of God's attributes is His omnipotence?

two salvations?
It was answered in the vein of the question.
Does one place father Abraham in heaven before the blood was spread or do we see him down in paradise in Luke 16?

We are ALL born in Adam (in the flesh)...with a sin nature.
Agreed, but what I can't understand is how can a person get there (born in Adam) if they were first placed in Christ before the foundation of the world?
Its my understanding the foundation of the world came before man's birth in Adam.
Are you saying those who God chose to salvation were "spiritually" placed in Christ before the foundation of the world, then physically (in the flesh) placed in Adam, then their flesh was re-united with their spirit when they are placed back in Christ?

Election is NOT salvation, but TO SALVATION...
I can see the difference; but for there to be a difference, there must be something that makes it different.

Like I said, sometimes the words of J.C. are so confusing.

 

You said..BIBLE ANSWER. right? Omnipotence is theology...right?

Beside, you didn't answer it anyway.

The way it was wroded, it seemed like two salvations.

Give me a verse that you want to address.

1st.."in Christ" means a few things. In some places it means "HEADSHIP". Adam was the HEAD of our race. When he failed, we all failed with him.

Christ is the HEAD of the new race. Because he rose from the dead, believers can now live.

In other places it means...in the work of Christ. Or...By the work of Christ. Or....through the work of Christ.

Like in Eph 1..."in Christ" is used a few times. The greek word en...is translated "IN"..most of the time in Eph one. But in Eph two and three it is translated..."THROUGH...and AT.

Again the meaning of the phrase is...."in the work of Christ".

ok

no

Choice...to open....leads to believing

Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death:...

Isaiah 43:10...Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

ok

 

Jesus Christ

Jesus isn't confusing. If you look at how He treated the wise and learned who thought they were the elect who thought they knew God but they didn't even recognize Him right before them. Compared to the sinners who knew they needed Him. The meek and humble who do not lean on their own understand but trusted in the Lord.

 

I agree, but John Calvin is.

 

ok,,whose choice?

 

1) How did I know this was the game you were playing?

2) Who was talking about John Calvin?

3) Post one line of John Calvin that you don't understand, and see if someone can help. Or was that just part of the game?

 

Gen 25:23

23And the LORD said to her,

"Two nations are in your womb,
and two peoples from within you shall be divided;
the one shall be stronger than the other,
the older shall serve the younger."


24When her days to give birth were completed, behold, there were twins in her womb. 25The first came out red, all his body like a hairy cloak, so they called his name Esau. 26Afterward his brother came out with his hand holding Esau’s heel, so his name was called Jacob. Isaac was sixty years old when she bore them.

****
Malachi 1

1The oracle of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.

2 "I have loved you," says the LORD.>>>>But you say, "How have you loved us?" <<<<"Is not Esau(C) Jacob’s brother?" declares the LORD. "Yet I have loved Jacob 3 but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert." 4If Edom says, "We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins," the LORD of hosts says, "They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called 'the wicked country,' and 'the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.'" 5 Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, "Great is the LORD beyond the border of Israel!"