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Again With Romans 13???

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by poncho, Jul 29, 2012.

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  1. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    In another thread that was closed before I could answer Padredurand said . . . trying to convince me (evidently) that Paul is saying government has unlimited authority over us . . .

    My guess here is that he is trying to tell me Paul instructed us to be in submission to civil authorites or else. Well, okay but how can he account for all the times in the bible that God's people resisted or refused to obey the civil authorites? Were they all violating God's principle of submission to civil authorities?

    [FONT=Palatino, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Did Moses violate God's principle of submission to authority when he killed the Egyptian taskmaster in defense of his fellow Hebrew?

    [/FONT][FONT=Palatino, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Did Elijah violate God's principle of submission to authority when he openly challenged Ahab and Jezebel?

    [/FONT][FONT=Palatino, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Did David violate God's principle of submission to authority when he refused to surrender to Saul's troops?

    [/FONT][FONT=Palatino, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Did Daniel violate God's principle of submission to authority when he disobeyed the king's command to not pray audibly to God?

    [/FONT][FONT=Palatino, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Did the three Hebrew children violate God's principle of submission to authority when they refused to bow to the image of the state?

    [/FONT][FONT=Palatino, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Did John the Baptist violate God's principle of submission to authority when he publicly scolded King Herod for his infidelity? [/FONT]

    [FONT=Palatino, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Did Simon Peter and the other Apostles violate God's principle of submission to authority when they refused to stop preaching on the streets of Jerusalem?

    [/FONT][FONT=Palatino, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Did Paul violate God's principle of submission to authority when he refused to obey those authorities who demanded that he abandon his missionary work?

    In fact, Paul spent almost as much time in jail as he did out of jail.    [/FONT]

    [FONT=Palatino, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Remember that every apostle of Christ (except John) was killed by hostile civil authorities opposed to their endeavors. Christians throughout church history were imprisoned, tortured, or killed by civil authorities of all stripes for refusing to submit to their various laws and prohibitions. Did all of these Christian martyrs violate God's principle of submission to authority?

    SOURCE

    Paul being a scholar of the law and history surely knew of these "violations".

    How do you answer that Padre?
    [/FONT][FONT=Palatino, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]

    [/FONT]
     
    #1 poncho, Jul 29, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 29, 2012
  2. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    I know that you didn't ask me, but here is my two cents anyway.

    Yes, the Bible is full of examplesof civil disobedience - Shiphrah/Puah, Daniel, and more. And, yes, we are to obey authorities. God established authorities for our benefit. But since God's laws overrides man's authority over man, the civil disobedience is allowed for in some circumstances.

    For example, what about the times that governing authorities are asking your to be immoral or unGodly?

    You can defy them, of course, but be ready to submit to their discipline of you. For example:

    In Acts 5, the apostles are brought before the authorities and commanded to stop preaching in Jesus' Name. They refuse and say that they are compelled to do so. They continue preaching in defiance of that authority. And, they submit to the authority in the fact that they don't "sue" to escape the punishment, but they submit to the beating they received and they went away rejoicing.

    Also, when Daniel found out that prayer to God was outlawed, he continued to do what he always did in terms of prayer. He went to his balcony adn prayed. And he submitted to the lion's den and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, in their refusal to obey an unGodly law, submitted to the fiery furnance.

    If I do not wish to pay my taxes anymore because I do not want any of my tax monies paying for someone's abortion under Obamacare, I can refuse to pay my taxes. But I would have to submit to the penalty of fines and/or jail time.

    Authority is a good thing. It prevents chaos. Bad authority is nevitab    ile. And one does not have to submit to it, but will have to bear the consequences of the evil regime in rebelling against wicked authority.
     
    #2 Scarlett O., Jul 29, 2012
  3. Zaac

    Zaac Well-Known Member

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    Yes indeed we are to submit to our authorities that God has placed over us. But we're not called to submit and do or support that which is against God's commands.

    Jesus Christ MUST be FIRST!!:applause:
     
    #3 Zaac, Jul 29, 2012
  4. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    >Did Moses violate God's principle of submission to authority when he killed the Egyptian taskmaster in defense of his fellow Hebrew?

    As the king's son, he had authority over a field foreman.

    This occurred before God officially gave the 10 words and legislation. Exactly which principle applies?
     
    #4 billwald, Jul 29, 2012
  5. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    I just get tired of people trying to shut others up by dragging out Romans 13 and using it as a club to beat us into submission to crooks and criminals.

    If the people who do this want to act like spineless jellyfish and obey anyone who claims to be in authority that's fine. Go for it but don't try and make jellyfish out of all of us by twisting God's word into meaning something it does not.

    The magistrate who abuses his/her power or acts outside of their legal authority (US constitution) is an outlaw of the worst kind and should be brought to justice. Period.

    Now having said all that I understand through years of reading the threads here that this will never happen because democrats and republicans will almost always seek to protect "their own" by shielding them from accountability. The other side is always to blame for our ill's is the mantra and it's killing this country. It's death by a thousand cuts and both parties are to blame. And we are the ones letting them all get away with the murder of our republic because we've let them keep us divided into bickering groups of no effect.
     
    #5 poncho, Jul 30, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 30, 2012
  6. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Divide and conquer, right, Poncho? Sad.
     
    #6 LadyEagle, Jul 30, 2012
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