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Alcohol - a social drug?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Ben W, Dec 22, 2005.

  1. Paul of Eugene

    Paul of Eugene New Member

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    I have been a teetotaler all my life and I fully intend to continue with that commitment, having been raised that way.

    But I recognize that scripture does not preclude a moderate amount of partaking of wine or similar alcoholic beverages. I refuse to judge anyone else for doing so.

    On the other hand, we all know the problems of excessive drinking. That's a sin.
     
  2. JamieinNH

    JamieinNH New Member

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    While I am very sorry for the loss of your husband, this information does shed some light in the reason for your stance against alcohol, however it's not a stance based with scripture. It's emotion that has you thinking this way, and not scripture I feel.

    God also has this to say in his Holy Word, how do you explain this verse with your stance?


    Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household


    Jamie
     
  3. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    I was raised in a non-Christian home. It was also a home where some European traditions were strong. From the time I was about ten family celebrations included a tiny bit of wine, a sip or so, for us. As a result, by the time I got to high school I was not at all impressed with those who tried to sneak it or get drunk with it. I thought that was just plain stupid. I did not turn into a drunk!

    My children are grown and gone now, except for Chris, who is 21 and profoundly retarded (encephalitis when he was three) and will always be with us. Is the family exemplary? No, it is not. The kids have had their problems. Daddy walked out on us with one of his many other women in 1991 when my youngest was six and my oldest 17. That reverberated through all of our lives horridly. But my oldest is 32 now and a leader in his church. We are immensely proud of him and see him much more as a brother in Christ than as a son.

    Here are the mountains the others have had to climb -- and there are still difficulties and climbing to be done.

    Son #2 -- his mom gave him Peregoric (an opiate derivative) when he was only a few weeks old so he would stop going to the bathroom and she wouldn't have to change his diapers. This resulted in intenstinal damage which prevented nourishment from going where it should and he ended up with brain damage. He is 29 now and with a Christian group and learning Bible because he wants to now.

    Daughter #1 -- diagnosed with Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy when she was 17. Her type is fatal half the time. She wrestled with God about it, rebelling for awhile. She is 26 now and a wonderful Christian wife and she and I are about as close as a mother and daughter can be. When Barry and I have speaking engagements, she is the one I can trust with running the house, caring for Chris, taking care of the animals, and handling everything that goes on here. She is incredible. She is still battling her RSD.

    Son #3 -- came to us at five with whipping marks still visible on his face and shoulders. He talked about drinking blood and told us he belonged to the 'debil.' He is 23 now and a college student and doing well.

    Daughter #2 -- has amnionic band syndrome, which in her case means several sections of several fingers are missing, her right big toe is missing, and some of the muscle mass in her left thigh is not there. Nevertheless she was princess at her homecoming and at her Sr. Ball in high school. She has also been our permanent rebel. Since she was six. My brother and his wife (who also have wine occasionally) finished raising her at my request and she is up in Washington still in their town. She is now, however, working full time in a group home and talking about going to college. I don't know if she will or not. She is 21.

    Son #4 -- Chris -- who had encephalitis, has an IQ that is unmeasureable (below 20), is autistic, cannot speak, and will always be in diapers. He is also 21 now.

    My kids all learned to deal with their problems without feeling sorry for themselves. They learned to change Chris' diapers even as he got older. They learned Bible. They learned patience (even Daughter #2!), they learned respect.

    Chris is safe where the Lord is concerned. Son and Daughter #1 are both committed Christians. The other three are, I think, coming. All have professed Christianity earlier in their lives, but I worked with kids for too many years to think that necessarily is what their adult committment will be.

    The mountains they have climbed and the lives they have learned to live have had NOTHING to do with the fact that I have had a glass of wine occasionally! In fact, that occasional wine sometimes gave me the moment of relaxation and extra patience I needed as the afternoon shift went into the evening shift all those years of single parenting!

    It is sure a lot safer than tranquilizers or sedatives! For me it is also a lot safer than a lot of other medications, too. I consider it a gift from God and a real blessing.

    I consider water the same way. Salt, too. And, as I mentioned, both of those can poison you, too.

    You will notice the Bible NEVER criticizes Noah for getting drunk that once. Never. Personally, I think his drunkenness was a total accident because of the reduced air pressure in the new world. The amount of wine he was used to and which was totally safe in the antediluvian world made him drunk in the new conditions.

    Don't tell me he didn't know it would ferment! One SIP of something that is fermented when you didn't expect it and you would spit it out in a hurry! He knew it would ferment and allowed that process on purpose. He had drunk wine before, and yet he was the only righteous man in his generation.

    Wine is a gift from God. It can be used or abused. But use does not mean abuse. It is abuse which is spoken of in the Bible. Use is recommended. There is no way around that.
     
  4. standingfirminChrist

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    Looks like you are doing nothing but trying to justify your own lust for the alcohol.

    You say Noah drank wine before the flood? Show me scripture where he did. There is none!

    Also, because of Noah's drunkenness, a curse was placed upon Ham and his descendants. So fermented alcohol does bring curses.
     
  5. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    Moderator warning:

    This thread, like so often with this topic, is on the verge of degenerating into personal attacks on other posters.

    Personal attacks will be snipped and/or the thread will be closed.

    Roger
    C4K
    Moderator
     
  6. Shiloh

    Shiloh New Member

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    Helen, If you want to drink, go for it. You are not one of my church members. If you were then there would be a concern. However you and the rest of the "christian drinkers" have to twist Scripture to make your point. A good example is Noah, notice there was much written about him before he was drunken but only three verses after. My point is that when God says something is sin, that should be enough for a child of God! Over the years I have dealt with many people with "Spiritual" problems. Many of these people I found out used alcohol in their homes. I NEVER had a single one of these people come back to church and STAY. Is the alcohol the problem? NO. The heart is the problem. I bet (if I would be a betting person) people that call themselves Christians and condone the use of alcohol have other spiritual problems. I would like to have their pastors write candidly on this board. Helen, if there would be no Scripture speaking to us about the use of alochol, what do you do about IJn.2:15-17? What about ICor.6:19,20 or IICor.5:17 or 6:17? These are just simple first grade verses we learned the day we received Christ. I'v seen the destruction drinking can do. I'v seen the broken homes, dealt with families torn apart because of a dad with an alcohol problem. Someone will come back with the idea that it's only a sin to get drunk. The drunkerd started with one (1) drink!
     
  7. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    1 John 2:15-17 -- "Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For everything in the world -- the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes, and the boasting of what he has and does -- comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of god lives forever."

    This says NOTHING about wine! It does reprimand me for having tried to point out that I have done things for the Lord on this thread, though, as that could be interpreted as boasting, which I hate. Loving the world has to do with seeking favor in the eyes of the world; with gaining status in the eyes of the world for its own sake; with seeking power in the world, or leadership positions. You know what I think is incredibly wrong which this verse indicates "We make Christian leaders!" I HATE that boast. Where is the boast "We make Christian servants." That does not appeal to the world, though, does it? Everyone wants to be a leader. Don't you think that is far more of the world than the desire to be a servant? These are the things this passage you referred me to are speaking of. It has nothing to do with a glass of wine or, for that matter, even with getting drunk! That does not excuse drunkenness, which plenty of other verses in the Bible address, but it also does not address the matter of drinking at all there, unless a person desires drinking for the sake of getting drunk (which many do) and therefore that could be classified as loving the world.

    1 Corinthians 6:19-20 -- "Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body."

    I do. I am not overweight. I do not get high on any kind of drugs, with the understanding that carpal tunnel syndrome is sometimes so painful that I will take enough ibuprofen and Tylenol to help me sleep. I have never smoked. I am diabetic in part because a horse kicked half my pancreas off when I was 21, but I have been diabetic for less than a year and it is well under control with minimal medication. I work hard around the home and have reasonable muscle tone for an old almost-58-year-old lady, and I use this body to care for people, animals, and all the Lord has entrusted to me.

    I know a lot of pastors, Baptist and otherwise, with bellies to be ashamed of. It all started with ONE (1) BITE....

    I know a lot of people who think wine is a sin and get high on medications! It all started with ONE (1) ASPIRIN!

    So let each of us take Paul's admonition as is right for him or her and not try to throw it in others' faces.

    2 Corinthians 5:17 -- "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"

    Amen! This, also, has NOTHING to do with a glass of wine! This has to do with the condition of the heart and the fact that it no longer always inclines toward evil (Genesis 9:21), but loves the things of God and even strains toward them. For those who WERE drunkards, it is the wonderful news that they are now free from that. I can understand them never wanting to touch another drop of anything alcoholic. For those who were gluttons, it is the wonderful news that now they can get that weight off and treat their body's as temples of the Holy Spirit. I can understand them if they never want to even smell chocolate again! For those who were liars, the wonderful news is that they don't ever have to be afraid of the truth again. I can understand them if they refuse to even 'indulge' in a little 'white lie.' I was one of these, and that is where I was set free, by the way.

    Being new is something that is so wonderful that trying to say it has something to do with not drinking a glass of wine is denigrating it to some sort of legality when it is about as far from that as anything could ever be.

    2 Corinthians 6:17 -- "'Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord.
    Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.'"


    Wine is not an unclean thing. In fact, alcohol is a terrific cleanser of wounds. Paul told Timothy to have it 'for his stomach's sake' -- which may well mean Timothy had ulcers, which are often caused by bacteria and which therefore a LITTLE wine would help, for wine kills bacteria. Paul was not recommending grape juice. That does nothing to help any stomach ailment, even though it tastes good.

    I have seen the destruction drinking can do, too. I have seen the destruction eating too much can do -- and that is far more prevalent now, with Type II diabetes exploding across America along with overweight problems which start with children!

    I have seen the destruction that television can do to children, robbing them of learning to interact with others, think for themselves, or spending quiet time alone. But we have a television in our house because we use it responsibly.

    I have seen the destruction cars can do to people who do not obey the rules, even when quite sober! But we have a car, and use it responsibly.

    The fact that something can be, and even often is, abused, to the detriment of the individual and those around him, does not make that something evil or wrong in and of itself. Wrong starts in the heart and then shows up in the abuse of substances. The poppy cannot be blamed because people use its seeds for drug manufacture! Peaches are not a bad fruit beccause their pits contain arsenic! The poppy is beautiful, and peaches are good, and wine, also, is good in its place -- and recommended by the verses in the Bible which you seem to prefer to avoid.

    As far as Noah is concerned, I am not concerned with the number of verses before or after his drunken episode. He is important because of the Flood, which came before! And nowhere, by anyone, is he ever condemned in the slightest in Scripture for what happened that day. His son is roundly condemned however for his reaction to it!
     
  8. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    Why was Jesus' first miracle to make wine for a wedding party where the people were obviously already getting drunk? I base this on the fact that the statement was made that you keep the bad wine for last when the people won't notice it because they are drunk........
     
  9. JamieinNH

    JamieinNH New Member

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    Now, it doesn't seem Christian like to only have concern over the members of your church. Not a slur, but my opinion is that we should be concerned over all Christians.


    Ever think that if God was really that mad to base verses on if he got drunk or not, that he would not haven't even put those "three verses" in there. God would have had someone else write it.

    You don't believe that God was SO angry that he didn't want to hear from Noah any more, yet, there were three more verses, so he just turn a blind eye to it and let Noah finish anyway?

    If God had been that displeased with Noah, then God would have surely had someone else write those last three verses.


    At least, down deep you know it's not the Alcohol. It never has been, it's always about the heart. Drinking isn't a sin, but getting Drunk is. People get drunk because their heart is not in the right place, people can drink WITHOUT getting drunk because their heart is in the right place.


    Yes, I will be that person. Let me ask you this.

    Does it say anywhere in the Bible that we are not to drink?

    Does it say anywhere in the Bible that we can drink?

    Does it say anywhere in the Bible that drinking is a sin?

    Does it say anywhere in the Bible that getting Drunk is a sin?


    Jamie
     
  10. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Yes, and no. "New wine" is generally agreed to be freshly pressed juice of the grape, that had not yet fermented. But wine for consumption was generally fermented to one extent or another. The best wine was wine that was fully fermented under the most ideal conditions.

    You can obviously get a virgin margarite, but the taste isn't the same, as you noted.
    Scripture concurs with you. Simply consumption of a margarita is not a sin. It's only a sin if you're abusing it, such as getting drunk. You're clearly not doing that.
    Then you're not looking. Not to toot my own horn, but I've done much good for the Lord. I have had a glass of wine with dinner on occaision.
    On the contrary. Scripture is abundantly clear and concise that simply consuming alcohol is permitted (but that drunkenness is not).

    It is you and your ilk that require the twisting of scripture to make the claim that consumption of alcohol is a sin. In fact, you have failed miserably to make that claim using scripture.
     
  11. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows New Member

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    This is certainly a tough issue.

    While the Bible refers to wine drinking as commonplace (Jesus drank wine Himself!) this WAS a different era in terms of drinkable beverages. Wine was drunk in ancient times because the alcohol in it kept it free of bacterial contamination. You could keep wine in a skin and drink it when wanted. Milk was not so easy to keep and water was always a risk depending upon where it came from (a possibly contaminated source).

    My biggest concern in terms of alcohol is the issue of witness. In my conservative baptist church drinking would be frowned upon.

    And why do I need to drink beer or wine anyway? I can have CLEAN water, milk, pop, juice, etc.

    Another issue for me is the things associated with alcohol - namely bars, parties, and other sinful things. In my younger days I drank to drunkenness regularly, frequenting bars and rotten parties on a weekly basis. Thus for me alcohol has a stigma - and I will never be able to drink it again for any reason.

    I would have to say however that there are many for whom alcohol is not a sin. Families in Europe often enjoy wine or beer with meals without any negative association with that alcohol. That is a part of culture.

    If a believer drinks an occasional glass of wine with dinner, not to excess, not feeling convicted by the Spirit, and not in any occasion to offend another believer - then I have no biblical grounds to declare that sinful.

    But for me because of my past and because of the example I want to set for my children I will NEVER again drink alcohol.
     
  12. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Charles, you ultimately bring up the bottom line. The issue is one of witness. However, the witness issue is not an absolute. For example, a glass of wine while dining is typically not a bad witness. On the flip side, patronizing a pub may be a bad witness in the US, but might not be in, say, the UK. My wife and I, for example, have gone to a local sports bar to watch sporting events, and have even gone with some churchgoing family and friends. It has never been a bad witness. OTOH, I never consume alcohol with my children present when we go to a baseball game. Not that it would be automatically wrong, but it's just my personal subjective standard. It would be wrong for me to point to every parent who's ever bought a beer at a ballgame and say "sinner".

    So the issue of witness really comes down to a case by case issue.
     
  13. Shiloh

    Shiloh New Member

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    The only advice I have for you christian drinkers is to go for it. Remember some day, those who are saved, will stand before Christ and give an account for the things you do, IICor.5:10 and guess what.....you are home free because that verse doesn't say anything about wine either.......right? [​IMG]
     
  14. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Shiloh, since you've wholely and miserably failed to provide support for the idea that alcohol consumption is in any way a sin, you equally fail in your contention that IICor.5:10 would put a Christian who has consumed alcohol in a category of lesser righteousness than one who refrained.
     
  15. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    If I were you, I wouldn't be too smug or self-righteous...

    I wonder what Jesus will say to those who have added prohibitions to His teaching and claimed it as the only truth, carefully ignored clear scriptural teaching and the example of Jesus in order not to "lose" a debate, condemned His followers on false charges, and made the Kingdom of God about "eating and drinking"?
     
  16. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Shiloh, when I am with the Lord, I will drink with Him as He partakes again from the Communion cup. Matthew 26:29

    Will you refuse?
     
  17. standingfirminChrist

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    It is funny how scriptures are either twisted or taken out of context to justify drinking.

    For instance, the statement that Noah drank wine before the flood is not found in the Bible, yet the claim is there.

    "Jesus made alcoholic wine' is another false claim to justify drinking.

    Scripture must be taken in context. Read the whole chapter. Sometimes you have to read two or three chapters. When you do, you will find everytime fermented drink is mentioned, it brought destruction.
     
  18. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    That's funny, coming from you, who is twisting scripture to make the claim that consumption of alcohol is scipturally forbidden. And even with the twisting, you completely fail to make a case for your claim.
    Then do so. Scripture clearly and abundantly permits the consumption of alcoholic beverages, while expressly forbidding drunkenness. No where in scripture is there any context that forbids consumption of alcoholic beverages outright.
     
  19. standingfirminChrist

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    I have posted many times the Written Word and in context showing alcoholic beverage is forbidden.

    I need not post again.

    But one more. The Bible tells us we are a royal priedsthoot in 1 Peter 2:9. Royalty is forbidden to drink wine lest their judgment be perverted in Proverbs 31. As royalty we are forbidden to consume alcoholic beverage'
     
  20. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Jesus in the High Priest. He drank wine and made it. He is also our King...
     
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