Aliens

Dear Bob,

Unlike you, I always try to base my faith on what is written in the Scripture -- not's man wild imaginations, like what you have shown us so far. I am sorry, but, I am not so sure why you continue to demonstrate your ignorance of the Scripture.

Again, incest was NEVER part of the mulitiplication process of humanity based on God's rightenousness. His righteousness is the same in the past, present, and future. It is relevant for today, and tomorrow.

I am very much aware that Abraham repeatedly committted what I described to be WHITE LIES, during his travel to Egypt by introducing his wife Sarai as his "sister" because of the fear for his life -- Sarai being a "fair" (beautiful) woman (Genesis 12:11-20).

Now, let me ask you, based on the context of the Scripture and the genealogies listings, where do you see Sarai being documented as "half sister" of Abraham, as church continue to assume? Do you know whose daughther was Sarai?

Here are the listings of their geneologies....

Genesis 11
25 And Nahor lived after he begat Terah an hundred and nineteen years, and begat sons and daughters.
26 And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran.
27 Now these are the generations of Terah: Terah begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran; and Haran begat Lot.
28 And Haran died before his father Terah in the land of his nativity, in Ur of the Chaldees.
29 And Abram and Nahor took them wives: the name of Abram's wife was SARAI; and the name of Nahor's wife, Milcah, the daughter of Haran, the father of Milcah, and the father of Iscah.
30 But SARAI was barren; she had no child.
31 And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, AND SARAI HIS (Terah') DAUGHTER IN LAW, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there.
32 And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years: and Terah died in Haran.

Now, Bob, present your facts to support your assumption based on the Scripture, or everyone will see that you are just whistling in the wind again -- in trying to defend your flawed religious views.

I will be waiting...

 

I am sorry to have to continually instruct you on the content of scripture - hopefully we can get on to the substance of the discussion without having you stumble at each point of scripture going foreward -- I fully understand why you have to repeatedly make stuff up to support your assertion that families must not have married in the case of Adam so that you can then insert evolutionism's false doctrines into the story of Genesis -- but the Bible is flatly opposed to such story telling.

Gen 20
11 Abraham said, "Because I thought, surely there is no fear of God in this place, and they will kill me because of my wife.
12 "Besides, she actually is my sister, the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother, and she became my wife;

 

John Gill Quote:

Genesis 6:1

And it came to pass, when men began to multiply upon the face of the earth…

Either mankind in general, or rather the posterity of Cain, who were mere natural men, such as they were when born into the world, and as brought up in it, destitute of the grace of God, and of the knowledge and fear of him; and who in proportion much more multiplied than the posterity of Seth, because of the practice of polygamy, which by the example of Lamech, one of that race, might prevail among them: and daughters were born unto them;
not daughters only, but sons also, though it may be more daughters than sons, or it may denote remarkable ones, for their beauty or immodesty, or both; and chiefly this is observed for the sake of what follows.
http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=ge&chapter=006&verse=001

Genesis 6:2
That the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were fair…

Or "good" F11, not in a moral but natural sense; goodly to look upon, of a beautiful aspect; and they looked upon, and only regarded their external beauty, and lusted after them: those "sons of God" were not angels either good or bad, as many have thought, since they are incorporeal beings, and cannot be affected with fleshly lusts, or marry and be given in marriage, or generate and be generated; nor the sons of judges, magistrates, and great personages, nor they themselves, as the Targums of Onkelos and Jonathan, and so Jarchi and Aben Ezra; but this could be no crime in them, to look upon and take in marriage such persons, though they were the daughters of the meaner sort; and supposing they acted a criminal part in looking at them, and lusting after them, and committing fornication with them, and even in marrying irreligious persons; yet this could only be a partial, not an universal corruption, as is after affirmed, though such examples must indeed have great influence upon the populace; but rather this is to be understood of the posterity of Seth, who from the times of Enos, when then began to be called by the name of the Lord, (Genesis 4:25) had the title of the sons of God, in distinction from the children of men; these claimed the privilege of divine adoption, and professed to be born of God, and partakers of his grace, and pretended to worship him according to his will, so far as revealed to them, and to fear and serve and glorify him. According to the Arabic writers F12, immediately after the death of Adam the family of Seth was separated from the family of Cain; Seth took his sons and their wives to a high mountain (Hermon), on the top of which Adam was buried, and Cain and all his sons lived in the valley beneath, where Abel was slain; and they on the mountain obtained a name for holiness and purity, and were so near the angels that they could hear their voices and join their hymns with them; and they, their wives and their children, went by the common name of the sons of God: and now these were adjured, by Seth and by succeeding patriarchs, by no means to go down from the mountain and join the Cainites; but notwithstanding in the times of Jared some did go down, it seems; (See Gill on 5:20) and after that others, and at this time it became general; and being taken with the beauty of the daughters of Cain and his posterity, they did as follows: and they took them wives of all that they chose;
http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=ge&chapter=006&verse=002

 

The cited text does not contradict my position and depends on how you understand the rightenousness of God - which unfortunately you seem to be lacking. Just so you know, the story of Abraham is about FAITH in God's righteousness.

Let's look at the complete context of the cited text...

Genesis 20
9 Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done.
10 And Abimelech said unto Abraham, What sawest thou, that thou hast done this thing?
11 And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake.
12 And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.
13And it came to pass, when God caused me to wander from my father's house, that I said unto her, This is thy kindness which thou shalt shew unto me; at every place whither we shall come, say of me, He is my brother.

Of course, Abraham was telling that same white lie to the Pharaoh (Gen. 12:11-20) and Abemilech (Gen. 20:11-13) in order to have consistency to his story and confessions.

The question NOW you have to ask yourself is... why would Abram continue to ask repeated favor to Sarai - IF it was NOT a WHITE LIE - Genesis 11:11-13?

The answer is simple, because of Abram continued travel into Egypt. He had no choice but to STICK with his made up story and SPIN IT for justification.

Here's what the Lord' testimony to Abimelech in his dream regarding that same issue.....

Genesis 20
2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah.

3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.

My question to you is.... who do you believe and carry more weight in their testimony - Abraham (white lies) or the Lord's?

Of course, unless you believe the the Lord also LIED to Abimelech -- by witholding this information that Sarah is also the half-sister of Abraham - then, perhaps, you have a basis for argument.

Now, where do you stand?

In the same token, unless anyone here can answer the question about who's daughter's was Sarai, based on the geneology listings I cited, -- free of mis-interpretation -- any view contrary to our Lord's testimony in Gen. 20:3 is pure speculation.


God Bless

 

Your statement that Abraham is lying about Sarah being his half sister is denied by every known Bible scholar on the planet and is not supported from scripture.

your statement that Christ is wrong about Moses writing Genesis is a huge error - and denied by every conservative Bible scholar on the planet - nor can it be upheld from scripture.

I am not telling you anything you don't already know - but I just want you to know how glaringly obvious this is to all of us.

Your compounded error that Adam was created on day 3 no matter what the word of God says - is totally wrong.

your manufactured need to ignore the obvious fact that Sarah is both the half-sister of Abraham and his wife -- is painfully obvious.

In Christ,

Bob

 

IF you notice, I don’t heed to any so called Bible Scholar since their views are bias and mostly based on their flawed traditional religious faith – just like what you’ve learned.

I stand to what I’ve posted… Abraham was spreading his WHITE LIES because of the fear of his life - thinking, that the fear of God is not in that place at that particular time. Obviously, Abraham learned otherwise and started to have strong faith to God' will.

Your continued malicious misrepresentation of my stand and distortion of my quotes in to out-of-context are well noted. You must be thinking repeating your lies will give you more credibility. You have been exposed of your biblical errors but you don’t want to be corrected – that is why you’re mad at yours truly. Is desperation setting in?

Please provide your evidence for such accusation above or everybody will know the malicious intent of your heart.

Read again my stand and don’t take them into out of context to suit your lies.

An apology is in order, don't you think so Bob?

Your objection is only based on your religious view and will not hold ground nor sustain any merit with Scripture. Do you have Biblical proof text to prove me wrong?

I see, so you believe that the Lord God LIED to Abimelech as well -- by intentionally withholding the same issue –- that Sarah was also Abraham “half sister” a side from his wife, did I get you right?

Genesis 20
3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.

I guess you rather believe that God allowed filthy INCEST in the process of multiplication of men (humans) -- rather than having faith in God -- providing us with another kind of “mankind” for that same process.

BTW, you also failed to answer my question before….

What kind of moving creature did Cain got his wife from -- IMMEDIATELY after he left the presence of the Lord?

2nd request....

 

Before you make such a "scientific" statement such as this, please verify your sources. Don't make statements that you can't back up. Give a URL to verify it. Cite a source. Don't just make something up that you can't verify.
How can you verify that "The DNA within all humans confirm that we descended from a prehistoric woman." I want to see the scientific evidence (and the Biblical evidence) for this. Where is it? If you can't produce it, then be quiet about it, and retract it.
DHK

 

It has already been shown to you. Just accept the Word of God. I will cite to you what Bob has already given:

Gen 20
12 "Besides, she actually is my sister, the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother, and she became my wife;

 

And what happened here?
No more scientifc statements. No verifcation of scientific statements. Consequently no more outlandish statements by 4Pillars?

 

I love this quote of yours. It speaks volumes of yourself (even though you are afraid to identify yourself).
You don't trust any Bible scholars--those who have immense Bible knowledge--fare greater than you will ever attain to. And in the same breath you call Abraham, the Father of the Jewish nation, a liar. What kind of theology is that? You also take the position of the Roman Catholics that God differentiantes between sin, as between levels of lying. I have news for you. He doesn't. A lie is a lie is a lie. There is no such thing as a "white lie." One lie is just as evil and wicked as another lie.

 

The Bible shows clearly that Abraham deceived the king by just referencing the fact that Sarah was his sister and not also including the fact that she was his wife as well.

However 4Pillars is engaged in a kind of eisegesis with blinders on - that ignores the fact that Jacob married his two cousins and Abraham married his half sister. The reason 4Pillars does is - is that he wants to invent the idea of OTHER humans for Cain and Seth to Marry other than members of Adam's descendants.

A compromise with darwinian evolutionism I think.

in Christ,

bob

 

Dear Bob,

Unless you can answer my direct question, your argument is null and void.

for the nth times....

Is it your position that the Lord lied by witholding the issue and information -- that Sarah was also Abraham' half sister and his wife -- to Abimelech king of Gerar?

Genesis 20
2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah.
3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.

Either Abraham was lying to protect his life, according to the Scripture (lacking in faith at that particular time) or the Lord lied intentionally -- by withholding the information (your claim) to Abimelech about Sarah being his "half sister" also?

Which one??? Your answer please.... nth request....

 

Dear DHK,

The sons of God (prehistoric mankind) were as high in intelligence as Nature could ever produce. The ability to produce offspring with Humans shows that we were made for each other, BUT the sons of God (prehistoric mankind) were Not Human. They did Not have the Human Intelligence of Adam, but their Offspring did.

Here's one of the link that you can verify... whether you believe it or not is your choice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

 

I am glad to see that you tried to give a reference to your statement. But before you do such please read carefully the site that you posted. Realize that what you posted is in direct contradiction to the information to the URL that you gave.

There is not "Mitochondrial Eve" as you would have one to believe. You are being a bit ignorant on this subject. Learn to read carefully. I will take my quotes from the site that you gave.

There, according to this totally unproveable hypothesis, not just one "mitochondrial Eve," but many. That shoots you in the foot, according to the propaganda that you have been spouting forth. This is not science. Look in the dictionary for a good definition of science.

Again this not science. It falls in the realm of scientism, which is the metaphysical, something that science has no business dealing with. These so called people (or even person) did not exist 150,000 years ago, as there was no earth 150,000 years ago, and no way to prove that there was. Again you deal with scientism not science. You are in the realm of the metaphysical, which in itself is another religion.

Science is knowledge based on observable facts, and then classified in an orderly manner. What you have presented is none of those things and does not fit that definition at all. Science always is based on observation. Without observation there is no science. That is why evolution, for the most pat is a lot of "bunk." It isn't true science. Who was there to observe the origin of the world, and the universe. Only God. He revealed it through His revelation to mankind in Genesis one and two to mankind which doesn't need any allegorical commentary from you. The way that you have presented yourself on this thread and the Genesis thread, infers that you are a gnostic. No wonder you don't want to identify yourself. Gnosticism was one of the early heresies that confronted the early church. Even the Apostle John wrote against it in his first epistle. But you write like an gnostic. Is that what you are?

 

Dear DHK,

Your "correction" is your personal opinion. That and $2.90 will get you a cup of coffee in Sturback. Do you have a better explanation how mankind multiply within their kinds? INCEST you said???

Science itself is not on trial here but your poor understanding of the Scripture -- in relation to the true discovery of Science andHistory. Therefore, your argument is moot unless you can come up with Biblical proof text to support your flawed religious view.

Next please..... :laugh:

 

"Science" does not claim that "Cro-magnon filled the seas".

"Science" does not claim that mankind came about 1000's of years before the sun -- on "day three".

"Science" does not make the wild claims of 4Pillars and neither does the Bible.

Furthermore ALL AGREE that Jacob married his cousins AND Abraham married his half sister -- the Bible states it clearly - and "we believe it".

So instead of "making stuff up about cro-magnon" why not simply read the Bible and "believe it"??

Seems like a much better approach.

In Christ,

Bob

 

4 Pillars claims that Abraham's wife CAN NOT be his half sister LIKE THE BIBLE says - because if she IS both -- then God is a liar for God said - she is NOT his half sister - she is only his wife -- according to 4Pillars.

Obviously we have NO SUCH TEXT in all of scripture - but 4Pillars keeps "imagining it" in order to "insert cro-magnon into day 3".

How sad.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Dear Readers,

I don't know where Bob is getting his "qoutes" from. Obviously, it is meant to misrepresent my position and to deceive you. Notice, he can not quote me DIRECTLY.

Only those who could no longer defend their flawed religious view will choose to employ these kind of blatant lies and audacity.

I am very much dissapointed. :laugh:

 

Once again, here are the listings of Abraham's geneology - INDEPENDENT AND FREE FROM ANY MIS-INTERPRETATION

Genesis 11
25 And Nahor lived after he begat Terah an hundred and nineteen years, and begat sons and daughters.
26 And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran.
27 Now these are the generations of Terah: Terah begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran; and Haran begat Lot.
28 And Haran died before his father Terah in the land of his nativity, in Ur of the Chaldees.
29 And Abram and Nahor took them wives: the name of Abram's wife was SARAI; and the name of Nahor's wife, Milcah, the daughter of Haran, the father of Milcah, and the father of Iscah.
30 But SARAI was barren; she had no child.
31 And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, AND SARAI HIS (Terah') DAUGHTER IN LAW, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there.
32 And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years: and Terah died in Haran.

I don't know where Bod and DHK see that Sarah is listed as Tehrah' daughter or Abraham half sister, in the geneolgy listings above. Either this people could not read Scripture or they are part of the fulfillment Peter's prophecy -- Scoffers of the last days -- willingly ignorant.

The fact is ladies and gentlemen --- hear ye....... hear ye........ hear yea........

Sarai is listed as Terah' "DAUGHTER IN LAW" alright - Abraham's wife.

Unlike them, (opositions) my faith remains in God' rightenousness -- INCEST was never part of God's blessing in the process of multiplication of human kind. :thumbs:

God Bless

 

Dear 4Pillars,

Is it your standard method of debating to conveniently leave out the facts that don't agree with your position? Such as Genesis 20:12?

Since you can't seem to debate using the whole counsel of God, I don't know why you think you have any credibility left.