"all have sinned"

What a novel idea. Using the Bible to say what the Bible says.

Good Job Archangel. "A workman that does not need to be ashamed"

 

Yes. Outstanding post. Thanks.

 

Implication 1 is not valid. If so something like this would be true as well......if it said all are liars, it would mean that all who would at some point lie are liars even if it had not yet occured A better interpretation to me is that if one is capable of understanding the text, then he is probably a sinner by that point.Meaning the author would not have felt it necessary to qualify it by saying something like all have sinned by age 12. Too big a stretch to have day old sinners.:love2:

 

Man was also not the first or only sinner in the world. Don't get me wrong, much of what you said is true, I just think some other conclusions can be reached.:love2:

 

Friends,

Thank you for your encouragement. I am very humbled by your kind words. May God be praised for His matchless word.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Add my kudos to that as well Archangel.

As usual your insight is excellent.

When I am gone from here I will give you my torch so that you can carry it along with the brighter one you already have.

Keep up the good work, Brother!

 

I'm assuming that, since you are not a universalist, the ALL men to whom the free gift unto justification of life was given does not mean all men without exception.

I'm assuming then, the ALL men under judgment is not the same as ALL men to whom the free gift came.

Maybe I shouldn't assume. Wanna clarify?

 

I believe both instances of the word "all" in Romans 5:18 means 100% of all men, but I am not a Universalist, and I do not believe all men will be saved.

Now try to figure it out.

 

Forgive me, Winman, but I can't figure it out. I'm having trouble with the 100% of all men who upon whom came the gift to justification unto life. I'm not a universalist either, so it seems to me that the ALL in that sentence must be interepreted in another way than all without exception.

If Paul had written that the gift was offered to all men, then I could see how that could be 100% of all men. But it says "came upon all men."

So make it easy on me, please. Tell me what I need to know to figure it out.

 

Man, have non-Cals gotten a lot of mileage out of the word whosoever!Yet, as you have pointed out --it's not in the original. In John 3:16 :"...the believing ones..."

I got a kick out of your last line:"God carefully adds TWICE (to be sure slow learners and Pelagians would catch it) 'no,not even one!!'

You sound like Gordon H.Clark there. And I mean that in a good way.

 

Great job..

 

To all,
with the following quote from Archangel accepted by at least several Calvinists, do the same admit that man subsequent to Adam can be seen as not responsible for his condition? If not, why please?:love2:

"So, speaking from the standpoint of Biblical Theology, we are conceived already sinners because there is never a time when we are not "in Adam," there is never a time when we don't possess an already-fallen human nature, and there is never a time when we are innocent."

The Archangel

 

We are responsible for our condition, whether or not inherited. See Romans 1.

Here's the bottom line...

We are born dead in our sin.
We sin after we are born, whether by commission or omission, whether intentionally or accidentally, or just in passing because we are there.
We are held accountable for our sin by God.
There is no recourse for our sin -- nothing we can do to pay the penalty for it.
And, the penalty for our sin is that we are damned eternally to hell, utterly apart from God or God's grace, to suffer without ceasing.

Pretty bad news, huh?

But, the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ says that "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us..." God made a way when no way was possible. Christ BECAME our sin. He paid the entire penalty for our sin in His own body. And in place of our sin, He imputes His righteousness to us, so that when we stand before our Father in the day of judgment, we will pass into His eternal kingdom of joy and glorification, eternally.

That is the "good news" otherwise called the gospel.

To any who think they can somehow cheat the system by doing something, I am sorry. You cannot. The Bible is clear, all our attempts at righteousness are as "filthy rags."

To any who think they can someone please God by their "faith" (before God graces them with the ability to believe), I am sorry. It is simply not so.

To any who think that God is somehow "evil" because He takes this hard line, examine your heart and realize that you still dwell in unrepentant and dead sin, for you take the point of the enemy of God and use it against our great and gracious Lord and Savior!

 

Thanks for the response.......I don't deny that we all sin. Still wanting others to weigh in as to why we are responsible if born guilty somehow. I agree wholeheartedly that this is bad news.:love2:

 

The very simple answer is that God says so... Who is going to over-rule Him?

 

That makes zero sense to me. If you are created that way you have no chance to be otherwise and can in no way be responsible in a just way. This point is very important. I don't like analogies because of our tendency to pick them apart but will use one to illustrate. If my child is born deaf and I discipline him for not listening is that just,merciful,righteous,loving,logical,fair....etc?
Still looking for others to explain....Thanks! :love2:

 

Part of the challenge here is that you (and others) miss one simple point: We are not directly created in God's image. Now, before people call me names and accuse me of stuff...I whole-heartedly affirm that we, even today, do bear the image of God.

However, we are not created in the image of God as Adam was. We are pro-created in the image of Adam (see Genesis 5).

So, while we bear the image of God (hence Genesis 9 demanding the death penalty for those who commit murder), we are primarily in the image of Adam (hence Paul's very common usage of "in Adam").

This is the concept in Biblical and Systematic Theology of Federal Headship. Now, there are those that want to dismiss the Federal Headship of Adam saying it is unfair that we are held guilty for Adam's sin. However, if you don't affirm that, given Paul's arguing, you cannot have us being counted righteous in Christ.

The Archangel

 

Let me try.

All men have the penalty of sin paid for by the death of Christ, but only those who accept Jesus Christ as Savior have the gift imputed to their account.