All LS Discussions and Debates

"I USED to like sinning..." LS repentance is the promise to STOP sinning.

And here we have the definition of salvation being based on behavior. A promise of future performance FOR salvation. This is Lordship’s works based “Forsaking Sin” FOR salvation- to BECOME a Christian!

Lordship Salvation’s repentance confuses sanctification (growth of a believer) with justification, (God declaring/making a sinner righteous).


LM

 

Wrong. "Forsaking sin" has nothing to do with outward works. It is a change of focus, which leads to a change in action.

Let me ask you: where in the Bible does it say someone can say something like:

"Lord, I like my pornography. But I want to go to Heaven. So I am going to pray this sinners prayer, but I am going to keep enjoying my pornography, cause I really do not care about serving you, or pleasing you. I am going to Heaven on my terms, God."

That is simply unbiblical. And when I put it like that, YOU know it is un-biblical. A change in direction/mind (repentance) is needed. You say "Lord, I know I am a sinner. I am so sorry for sinning against you. I put my faith and trust in you". Turning from/forsaking sin (which is not an outward action, but an inward change) is NECESSARY for salvation.

 

No, it is not. It is turning from sin/forsaking sin> a change of focus from worldly pursuits to God. Nowhere does J. Mac say that one should pray "Lord, I promise to stop sinning".

That is just silly.

 

You are providing he perfect definition of Lordship Salvation's performance/behavior based message. The resolve to turn from, to stop sinning and start obeying FOR salvation.

This is the works based, man-centered message of Lordship Salvation. The lost man, according to Lordship Salvation, must make a commitment to change his behavior, "forsake everything" FOR salvation.

Remember, the crux of the controversy is not what should follow becoming a Christian, the crux of the controversy is over Lordship's requirements to BECOME a Christian.

LS frontloads faith with a commitment of life to forsake everything and follow Christ. This is a promise to perform the "good works" (Eph. 2:10) expected of a mature born again Christian.

Lordship Salvation’s repentance confuses sanctification (growth of a believer) with justification, (God declaring/making a sinner righteous).

Charles Ryrie wrote,

LM

See also, John MacArthur's Costly Salvation

 

Apparently you didn't hear me, for there was no "behavior" or works in my post. It is a attitude, not an action.

Let me give you two examples...

One: I tell my wife I am going to mow the lawn. Is this work? No, it is not. If that is the case, I will just keep telling her I will all day! Then I can say "Baby, according to Lou and Charles, I have been working hard all day!:laugh:

Two: I tell my wife I am going to mow the lawn. Later that day, I mow the lawn. Which one was the work?

No, the crux of the controversy IS over what follows. You and Charles believe it is possible for a Christian to be "saved" and then just keep acting the same way. Both of you use words like "probably", "in most case" etc. But the Bible does not. It speaks in DEFINITE terms. A saved person WILL be a changed person, every time. Why? True faith and repentance, always results in true change. Otherwise you are just a hypocrite.

There is no "promise to perform good works". Saying "I am tired of sinning against you and I want a new life", is quite different from saying "I am going to go feed orphans". One is a work, one is an attitude of repentance.

You and Charles, try to make it possible for a person JUST to be justified, with no sanctification. They are two sides of the same coin.

BTW "Sanctification" is the process where a person who DESIRES to follow God, but is week in some areas, slowly gains in strength, and ability to resist sin (or even better: completely loses desire for it). Romans 7 describes this nicely.

It is NOT a process whereby a seemingly oblivious "saved" person, starts to dislike His sin, or decides that now He is saved, He should start trying to change his life. Galatians CLEARLY condemns such ideas...

Sanctification is not some "second step" Discipleship is not something we choose AFTER we are saved> that would be being "perfected by the flesh" and is condemned here, in Galatians. These things, rather, are AUTOMATIC for the believer, for this change will be wrought by the Spirit.


In regards to Galatians 1:6:9, He is addressing the circumcision party, and the OT law. It is always interesting to me, that people who read Galatians, FAIL to read this verse...

Gal 2:19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God.

So "dying to the law" equals "living to God". Not "being saved, then deciding later if you want to live to God".

They also conveniently leave out:
Gal 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.


Now, I noticed you ignored my second post: let me put it up again so you can respond.

"Let me ask you: where in the Bible does it say someone can say something like:

"Lord, I like my pornography. But I want to go to Heaven. So I am going to pray this sinners prayer, but I am going to keep enjoying my pornography, cause I really do not care about serving you, or pleasing you. I am going to Heaven on my terms, God."

That is simply unbiblical. And when I put it like that, YOU know it is un-biblical. A change in direction/mind (repentance) is needed. You say "Lord, I know I am a sinner. I am so sorry for sinning against you. I put my faith and trust in you". Turning from/forsaking sin (which is not an outward action, but an inward change) is NECESSARY for salvation."

 

Lou, heavensdad,

I think you both are on the same track. Just a little "tweaking" and y'all will be on the same page. :laugh:

There is a repentance unto salvation which we call a "change of mind." It really ends up being a change of SOUL. Repentance unto salvation is a decision to change, not just one's behavior and thinking, but to change one's conscience, too -- one's "internal standards" of right and wrong, truth or untruth, the "trajectory" of one's life! To entirely commit to God through Christ.

This particularly explains how a child can be saved having seen very little of evil in his or her own life. What have they promised to do in "saving repentance?" They've promised to abide by God's standards inasmuch as they a) know them and b) are empowered by the Spirit to overcome temptations.

This is, after all, all that even a grown man or woman can do as well. When we get saved, we don't even know all the sin God sees in our lives! We certainly aren't coming to Him repenting from things we don't yet know to be sin, are we? Why would we change our mind about that?

Now as we FOLLOW Christ, are discipled/sanctified by the Holy Spirit, we come upon sin in our lives. Because we apply GOD'S standards/conscience, they are illuminated to us. It is NOW that we change our minds about sin in our spirits and flesh and repent from sin.

So Lou makes an excellent point regarding the first "change of mind" that is required unto salvation. 1) It is the proof of saving faith. 2) It empowers us with the Holy Spirit, God's truth/wisdom, whereby we search out (as David said) and repent of sin. 3) This "change of mind" unto salvation is us changing our mind and soul in response to preaching that convicts us of the need for that saving change in our lives. Realize that the "change of mind" that changes our soul unalterably changes our eternal destiny but the "change of mind" that only changes our sin only changes our lives here on earth (our sins, after all, are forgiven in heaven already even though there may be continuing consequences here on earth).

It is SO critical to realize and understand that unless we go on to be discipled, to become a "follower" of Jesus and not just a believer in Christ, we may not repent of our sins and behave like a Christian. We see this all the time among immature, baby Christians, don't we? They want to change the trajectory of their lives and their standards but they don't really know what God's standards are. And when we get someone like JM who focuses on this problem as "salvational" matter rather than one of "discipleship" of already saved believers, we end up misunderstanding the whole process of salvation which is JUSTIFICATION of the soul through saving repentance/conversion -- SANCTIFICATION of the spirit through repentant discipleship -- GLORIFICATION of the body through the "repentance" of the body from corruption to glory.

Can we get on the "same page" with this?

skypair

 

Hi Lou M.;
Don't you know that Christ doesn't want just a little bit of belief but wants all your attention. He wants you to realize that everything including our selves belong to Him, anyway. It seems you have taken John Mac Authur's commitment and called it works for Salvation. We are either fully commited or we aren't. There is no middle ground. You either Love God above all else or you don't Love Him at all.
MB

 

It is critical we are not led astray by such thinking. Galatians condemns this type of separation: the SPIRIT sanctifies us, just as it justifies us. It is an automatic thing, not a two part process. When you are saved, you are AUTOMATICALLY a disciple.

People who really want to change their lives, find help if needed. People who just want to make excuses and keep acting the same way, say "I'm so confused!" and keep on living the same way.

J. Mac is spot on. Christ was clear those who were not willing to "take up their cross and follow Him" were in danger of losing their souls, not "Having an unfulfilled life". Sanctification is by the Spirit, and is not dependent on external "works", but an inward spiritual growth, automatic for every believer. The bible does not say "God disciplines those He loves, unless they are confused and cannot find someone to disciple them". It does NOT say "To those who are being sanctified, and also those who want to be sanctified, but can't seem to find Help".

The bible says that those who are God's ARE being sanctified, and are therefore disciples. You cannot be saved, and NOT be a "follower of Jesus". That idea is completely foreign to scripture.

Not unless you are willing to agree that
#1 discipleship is an automatic work of the Spirit, that starts at the moment a person is saved.

#2 Repentance is a change of mind/direction, which precedes saving faith (repentance, which leads to a knowledge of the truth...), and always leads to a change of action.

 

#1: Discipleship is not automatic. Where do you get that from? Certainly not from the "rich young ruler," is it? Because he had already made a profession of salvation in that he did all the law.

Sanctification is automatic -- that is for sure! The Holy Spirit dwelling in us is our sanctification and whether we put ourselves under the teaching of Christ or not, He will still witness to us (even between our grieving, quenching, and resisting Him) as He "preserves" our salvation. I mean, this is Jesus promise. He WILL lead you into all truth -- He will comfort you -- He will pray for you with groanings that cannot be uttered. But this is NOT discipleship, bro. It is called "sanctification."

#2: Yeah, I can agree with that. Repentance is God's proof that we believe and regeneration is our proof that God accepts our belief. If we believed the wrong thing, we would not receive regeneration and proof and our belief would be "in vain."

 

#1 I put in bold the portion that necessitates the commitment to stop sinning. "I am tired of sinning against You, I want a new life wheer I will stop sinning against You." This is the LS error of defining repentacne as "turning from sin," which is to have the intent to stop sinning. LS defines ropentacne as the intent/resolve to turn from (stop) sin.

#2 I do not disassociate justifcation and sanctification (growth of the believer). Geuine results in discipleship should follow a genuine conversion. The problem is that LS requires the sinner to make a commitment to sanctified living FOR the reception of eternal life. This is the proimise to perform works message of Lordship Salvation.

It is NEVER right to make the position of- or commitment to works of discipleship (cross bearing, following) the condition for salvation.


LM

 

To be born again does God want belief or a commitment to behavior?

MacArthur's calling on the lost man for a commitment to self-denial, cross bearing and following is to turn the Gospel of grace into a works based message cenetered on man's commitment to do the works of a disciple.

Born again Christians should be "fully commited," on this we agree. But calling on the lost man to make that commitment FOR salvationis works.


LM

 

So, now YOU are preachig works based salvation, huh? Jesus was showing the rich young ruler that His God was His money> if He was unwilling to give it up, He could not be saved.

BTW> Gal 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law

So, it is IMPOSSIBLE that this was a "salvific" statement. The rich young ruler went away, UNSAVED, which Jesus makes clear by saying "How hard is it for a rich man to ENTER HEAVEN"...

AGAIN> Jesus said those unwilling to take up their cross and follow Him were endagering their SOULS, not simply "Living unfulfilled Christian lives".

[quote ]Sanctification is automatic [/U]-- that is for sure! The Holy Spirit dwelling in us is our sanctification and whether we put ourselves under the teaching of Christ or not, He will still witness to us (even between our grieving, quenching, and resisting Him) as He "preserves" our salvation. I mean, this is Jesus promise. He WILL lead you into all truth -- He will comfort you -- He will pray for you with groanings that cannot be uttered. But this is NOT discipleship, bro. It is called "sanctification."[/quote]

Discipleship is "following Jesus". Everything else is just modern interpretations. If you are a Christian, you ARE a disciple.

 

And you added to it, as well. I never said "Stop sinning against you".

That is not the "Lordship" definition. That is the Biblical definition. Anyone able to read Greek, even a little, that has the Septuagint, knows that biblical repentance includes sorrow over sin, and a turning from it. It does not take a genius to look at the Hebrew OT, and see where the word "Nacham" there, is the word "Metanoia" in the Septuagint. Or for that matter "Shoob". That is the definition. You cannot just change it cause you don't like it.

You have used, MANY times, words such as "should" "in most cases" etc. That automatically disassociates them. That there is even a POSSIBILITY of one without the other, means the second step is optional.

Jesus did. MANY times. With the rich young ruler, to the crowds as well. Also, he said REPENTANCE AND Faith must be preached among all nations.

 

It is not a promise to stop sinning

 

Yeah, how could anyone ever get the idea that repentance had to do with turning from your sins.... :tonofbricks:

Rev 2:20 But I have a few things against you because you allow that woman Jezebel to teach, she saying herself to be a prophetess, and to cause My servants to go astray, and to commit fornication, and to eat idol-sacrifices.
Rev 2:21 And I gave her time that she might repent of her fornication, and she did not repent. (What could that possibly mean...Hmmmm)
Rev 2:22 Behold, I am throwing her into a bed, and those who commit adultery with her into great affliction, unless they repent of their deeds.


Interesting.

Also...

Luk 3:8 Bear fruits in keeping with repentance.

If repentance is a "sorrowful forsaking of sins"> a desire to follow God, and turn away from a sinful lifestyle< this statement makes sense.

What happens to those who do NOT bear fruit "in keeping" with repentance?

Luk 3:9 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

 

All Lordship Salvation Discussions & Debates

Was said on another thread..

What does repent mean?

Here are a few verses where the word is used..

The Greek word used is "metanoia". What does it mean?

 

Perhaps I should "step back" and "take another run at" my POV. :laugh: Obviously, trying to see it from your approach is not working.

Repentance unto salvation is repentance of being a SINNER. There is a "way" that seemeth right unto a man..." That "way" is called "sin nature." If you will, it is all the wisdom a man has whereby he guides his life. This "self-authority," not specific sins or all sins that result from your "way," is what has to be repented of and abolished before one can be RECONCILED to God.

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." That is, he is the soul, spirit, and body of God. Even more specifically, His throne, His soul, had God, not self in charge. That is all God asks of us for salvation --- that we no longer be ruled by sin nature and that we be ruled by Him.

Which leads, if we repent of self/sinner, inexorably to our 1) eternal salvation, 2) our indwelling by the Spirit, 3) our discipleship/sanctification. There's barely an ounce of difference between the way you see sanctification/discipleship and the way I do -- but it is an important difference because it can't happen until you are indwelt. And you can't be indwelt by merely repenting of your sin or sins.

Repenting of sins is for those already saved. It is part of the sanctification process that is ongoing in this life.

I believe the point both Lou and I are getting at is sanctification/discipleship (LS) does not save. It is not even a perfect indicator that one is saved. You must first turn from having the sinner "wisdom" or "skill set" in charge of your life.

What Lordship salvation compares favorably to is this -- a financial derivative of a corporate bond. In it, the bond is divided into 2 derivatives -- 1) the long term payoff instrument or face value (like the soul, seemingly "eternal" before you get paid) and 2) the coupons that pay interest yearly or quarterly (like the spirit, they pay in the present but expire in the end). Lordship salvation seems to suggest that we "invest" in the coupons, the derivative, without owning the bond or either assumes that we already own the bond.

Anyway, I don't know if that makes the distinction any clearer. If not, we'll try again.

skypair

 

Let's be honest in words, and not impugn Christians or the Bible!

The error is : Lordship or "No Lord" Salvation ??

No, the error is the very title of this thread!!!

[Attack Deleted]

The title alone is a pejorative wording, and I definitely suspect the OP really knows this.

If he does not, then the OP does not even have a clue on the real issue, and/or current debate, sad to say. :tear:

Every individual who is within a thousand miles of being orthodox, has believed unequivocably that Jesus Christ is the Lord, for more two millennia. He is declared by Scripture with his most complete name and title of "Lord Jesus Christ", and this is rendered in these exact words, and has been for more the six and a quarter centuries, and between 60 and 100 times, by every English Bible translation*, worth half of "the price of the the paper, on which it is printed" (not to mention "the cost of the ink") since John Wycliffe's painstakingly hand copied NT appeared in 1382. (Did you know that the Wycliffe NT still contained the Epistle to the Laodiceans, and that exactly 1000 years after the Council of Rome 'officially' declared the exact NT Canon? But I digress.)

Christ Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus Christ is God, the Son. Jesus, the Christ, is Lord. He is, not only Lord, He is Lord of all. (How many ways does one have to express this Biblical truth??) This has been believed, stated, and held by the entire church since her "birthday", where Peter first declared to Israel that God made Him so: #

repeated it with emphasis to the Gentiles

declared to the Jerusalem Church

possibly repeated to the 'Jerusalem Church Council'@

which definitely declared this in their 'edict' that "circumcision and keeing the law" were not required for salvation, but with certain 'necessary' admonitions for 'disciples.'

(There is a "troubling" that continues even to this day, which I hope to address, probably in a later post, but time may prevent me from doing this for a few days, if the thread is still going, then.)

Every writer (and most books) of the NT, except for 3 - Mathew, Mark and Apollos (It's my post, and I believe Apollos, not Paul, is likely the author of Hebrews. ) expressly also declare the words ("Lord Jesus Christ") which Peter first declared in Ac. 11:17. Apollos puts this together in two verses, without using these direct words, and Matthew and Mark both put this all together, as well, in their gospels. He, alone, is the Lord Jesus Christ. He is "very God of very God" in the words of the Council of Nicea of 325, which Council was convend to 'settle' the question of the nature of Christ.

The "Church fathers" declare this very thing - who He is.

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/trinityquotes.htm

There is salvation in no other than He.

There is no such thing as "'No Lord' salvation". I have requested multiple times on this board, that this deliberately misleading appellation, along with the slur of "No-Lordship" which has been applied to those who also hold the general beliefs I do, not be used, as well. Yet it continues to appear. Why is that??

The question, issue, and debate is fairly accurately designated as those who believe in "Lordship Salvation" vs. "non-'Lordship Salvation'." I'll take the second categorization, and be included in it, for it is fairly accurate, as I said.

I have to go shortly, but do hope to get back to the discussion, but let's keep the "playing field" level in so-doing.

The issue is not any Calvinism vs. Arminian issue, despite some misconceptions that it is, since both "Calvinists" and "Arminians" are to be found on "both sides of the fence", so to speak.

The issue is not personalities - not now, nor has it ever been so for the entire time since the Reformation (despite some fairly 'high profile' individuals seen at times, in the discussion, most notably Drs. John W. MacArthur, Charles C. Ryrie, John S. Piper, A. Ray Stanford, the late John Gerstner and H. A. Ironside, Robert G. Wilkin, Prof. Zane C. Hodges and the late Mr. Miles. J. Stanford, for a few of those who are better known), since it really started to arise to prominence and was recognized as a serious question with the late B. B. Warfield and the late Lewis Sperry Chafer starting to debate the issue nearly a century ago; and which was clearly framed (and given the moniker of "Lordship Salvation") now nearly a half century ago, in 1959 in "Eternity" by Drs. Everett F. Harrison, and John R. W. Stott, both of whom I believe are still alive, from what I was able to deternmine this AM.

(One more personality must be mentioned, though, our own Lou Martuneac, who is considered the latest 'major' contributor to the discussion, with his book In Defense of the Gospel, by wikipedia.)

The issue is simply boiled down to this - "What must I do to be saved?" The 'content' of the answer to that question, as given by Paul of "Beleive on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved..." is the entire issue, in one nutshell.

Ed

# - All Scriptures are quoted from the NKJV, unless noted.

* - All Bible versions are not translations. Some are intentional paraphrases, such as The Message which renders "Lord" as "Master" and "Christ" as "Messiah" in many places, which would skew my 'count' if I included this version in the above. The NLT which finds has some 400 additional renderings of "Jesus", than do major translations, would be another example.

@ - The textual support for the word "Christ" here in Ac. 15:11, appears highly questionable, at best.

 

Exactly what J. Mac would say: we repent of our old selves, and we submit to Christ as Lord, or in your words, "that we be ruled by Him". You have just expressed the definition of Lordship Salvation.

I agree with you. But if you look at the voice/mood/tense of repentance in the New Testament, you will notice it STARTS BEFORE salvation (Leads to a "knowledge of the truth" and salvation), and continues AFTER salvation, for the rest of your life.

I agree. You have basically said you start out repenting from your old life of "self", or "general sinfulness", which leads to salvation, and then you spend the rest of your life repenting (turning away) from individual sins in your life.

As Paul Washer, a LS proponent paraphrased, regarding the tense of "Repentance" that the NT uses in regards to salvation "Now, spend the rest of your life repenting and having faith"

Lou would NOT agree with you here. J. Mac would though to a large part though. Except for the fact that the NT refers to all Christians as "disciples", not just a select group...

You can THINK you are a follower (disciple) of Christ, and not be saved (Jesus makes that very clear in Matthew 7), but you cannot BE a disciple of Christ, and not be saved. If you are saved, you are a follower of Christ. If you are not saved, you are NOT a follower of Christ.

All Lordship Salvation says is this> you cannot have Jesus as savior and NOT have Him as Lord> It is impossible to be saved, and say "Jesus, I want to go to heaven, but I don't want o give up my sin. I don't want to follow you. I just want a ticket to heaven." Such a lack of repentance cannot lead to salvation.

 

Say that again! Shot who?? Couple of blondes?? I don't get it!

Corporate Bond??

[Sigh!]

Try again!

Ed