Amillennialism

The Pope is not the antichrist. Nor is he the false prophet. The reformation is over 500 years old!!! I would be more conserned over Islam than the Pope. I don't believe in the tradition Hal Lindsey view of the end times but isn't (according to that theory) the Anti Christ is to be a Jewish Man of Sin? This view of escatoloty centers around Jerusalem and Israel and makes gentile christianity take a back seat while jewish christianity centers around 144,000 jewish virgin men. I don't buy it.

 

The reformation is gravitating back toward "mother Rome." It is quite possible that AC is a Jew -- there was recently a bishop of Paris, "City of LIGHTS," who was a former Jew and a possible successor to Pope John Paul II. I have since lost track of him but there is always that option.

That's OK -- don't "buy it." But believe me, Gentile "Christianity" will take a "back seat" to 144,000 Jews and 2 "witnesses" in the tribulation.

skypair

 

Rev. Moon has already done this.

I really don't see the pope ever claiming to be Christ. For one thing, it's only Catholics that follow the Pope and I really doubt they would go for that.

It's more likely to be someone that would attract people from all faiths, not just someone over the Roman Catholics.

I think it is likely to be someone who is a syncretist.

 

Hi, Amy! :wavey:

I think that actually means that he is Christ's representative on earth.

Despite all their problematic teachings, the Pope does not appear to be close to claiming to actually be Christ.

Revelation never uses the word "antichrist" but talks about the Beast and the False Prophet. I think it's in 1 John where it discusses the fact that many antichrists have gone out into the world, and I think this means false religions, as you say.

 

Specifically "Christ vicariously living among us."

Right. He can't reveal that -- the church is not raptured yet! He can't reveal "the lie" because we would immediately prove it false.

But suppose the world believed in the postrib rapture or were postmil/amil and whose main hope is Christ returning to reign. Postribbers believe they "go up and come down." Well, people will disappear and then the Pope might be seen "coming down." Viola! "The lie" is established with "signs and wonders."

I do believe that the AC 1) has an explanation for the rapture, 2) that he conquors by peace, 3) that he comes from a "small horn"/nation (Vatican City), 4) that he is the head of "MYSTERY BABYLON," the mother-child false religion, 5) that Satan has always had to have a "Christ-figure" around because he doesn't know when the rapture comes any more than we do, and 6) that the 10 kings hate the harlot (Rev 17:16) and for that reason destroy her so that they may "give their kingdoms to the beast," 17:17!! Those are just a few of many clues establishing my hypothesis.

One of those citations says, "This is the spirit of antichrist." Check it out. So is the Pope. His denial that Christ is come in the flesh is that he bypasses the Sacrifice for a works salvation, IMO.

skypair

 

Dude, learn some latin. Vicar means substitute or a change not the same thing. The Pope is claiming to be the representative. Just like they have vicars in England in the Church of England. You ever hear of a vicarage?

 

I don't understand how people can confuse the coming of Christ with the rapture. They are simply two separate events.
In these two verses you will notice;
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The lord does not set foot on the mountain but, we are meeting Him in the air. There can be only one reason why we meet Him in the air instead of on the ground. That being that this is not the second comming but rapture only. Christ sends His angles to gather us.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The Lord at His comming will be with all His saints.
1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
MB

 

Both Matthew 24:30-31 and 1 Thess. 4:15-17 show clear same event:

1. 'Coming' - Matt. 24:30
1. 'Coming' - 1 Thess. 4:15

2. 'Heaven' -Matt. 24:30
2. 'Heaven' - 1 Thess. 4:16

3. 'Clouds' - Matt. 24:30
3. 'Clouds' - 1 Thess. 4:17

4. 'Angels' - Matt. 24:30
4. 'Archangel' - 1 Thess. 4:16 (clear in 2 Thess. 2:7-'Angels')

5. 'Sound' - Matt. 24:31
5. 'Shout' - 1 Thess. 4:16

6. 'Trumpet' - Matt. 24:31
6. 'Trump' - 1 Thess. 4:16 (also in 1 Cor. 15:52-'trumpet)

7. 'Together' - Matt. 24:31
7. 'Together' - 1 Thess. 4:17

8. 'Elect' - Matt. 24:31
8. 'In Christ' - 1 Thess. 4:16

9. 'Winds' - Matt. 24:31
9. 'Air' - 1 Thess. 4:17

Both comparison are same describe of event.

1 Thess. 4:15-18 doesn't saying it will be before Tribulation. Apostle Paul was not discussing on the timing of saints' resurrection and our gathering. Paul was focus on what will be happen to our love ones who already died. He told them, that, we should not be sorrow over our love ones who already die, we should be rejoice that we shall see our love ones again when Christ shall come, these who died in Christ, shall be risen first then and remain of Christians who are still alive shall be caught up in the air, and we shall reunion with them again. That is a great news.

Also, 1 Thess. 4:15-18 do not saying that when after Christ descend out of heaven, to gathering us to meet Christ in the aior, THEN return back to heaven again. 'Descend' means down opposite of up.

Futurists saying of Zechariah 14:4 mentioned that Christ will touch on Mt. Olivet with his feet - literally, it will be at Second Advent. So, futurists(pretribs) saying Rapture- Christ will not touch on Mt. Olivet, only coming in the air. So, Rapture is not the Second Coming.

Zechariah chapter 14 is not focus on Second Advent. It discusses about First Advent, for the purpose of Calvary, that Christ already touch on Mt. Olivet with his feet 2,000 years ago. Later I will show you verses to prove that Zechariah chapter 14 was already fulfilled. By the way, I am NOT either partial or full preterist. I do understanding what the Bible saying. Later I will discuss on Zechariah chapter 14, why it is discuss about First Advent.

By the way, there is NOT a single verse find anywhere in the New Testament saying that Christ's feet will touch on Mt. Olivet at Second Coming.

Oh wait a minute, many saying -"What about Acts 1:9-11?" C=Verse 11 tells us, that the angels told them, they saw Christ ascends up in the air, So shall the same manner(way) as Christ shall come. Many pretribs saying of this verse 11 proves that Christ will touch on Mt. Olivet second time at Second Advent as he has left Mt. Olivet return back to heaven, so, in the same way, he will come down to Mt. Olivet.

Yet, techincally, Acts 1:11 does not saying Christ's feet WILL TOUCH on Mt. Olivet.

Neither saying find in Matthew chapter 24, nor find in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4, anywhere in book of Revelation either.

To my understanding of Acts 1:9-11 deals with AIR, not earth as the disciples saw Christ ascends in the AIR So, in 1Thess. 4:16 saying that Christ shall descend from heaven in the AIR. Future advent of Christ focus on the scene of air.

So, therefore, I have no problem with Acts 1:9-11, it speak clear about Second Advent, well even with 1 Thess. 4:15-18 too.

Later, I will discuss on Zechariah 14, why it deals with First Advent, not Second Advent with proof of scriptures.

In the New Testament teaching us clear, that Christ will come again at ONCE, not twice.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Go on http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=antichrist_4 re: "The term 'AntiChrist.'" There you should find these words:

"'Antichrist' is a Greek word. 'Vicar' is an English word. The words are synonymous. They have exactly the same meaning. 'Antichrist' translated into the English is 'Vice Christ' or 'Vicar of Christ.' 'Vicar of Christ, rendered into the Greek is 'Antichristos' = 'Antichrist.' The ordinary use of the word in the Greek is decisive on this point. So every time the Pope claims to be, 'The Vicar of Christ,' he is pleading at the bar of the world's opinion that he indeed is THE ANTICHRIST. (my bold)

Also (See Strong's #473 & 5547).


skypair

 

You can see in verse 31 that the elect are gatherd from the four winds. Form one end of heaven to the other. Unless I'm mistaken that means we won't be on earth when this scene takes place because the elect are gatherd from heaven. They aren't on the earth but are in Heaven...
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Those left behind aren't saved and those left behind cannot stop the ressurection though they would if they could.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
This is Christ descending from heaven to the air just above the earth where we meet Him when we are raptured.

This is we who are alive meeting the Lord in the air that He descended to.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
This is the Holy Spirit that dwells with in every one who believes in Christ. When we are raptured is the only way he can be taken out of the way. He is who holds back evil and He is about to be removed.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The last trump sounds before the beginning of the tribulation. The end of the trib is being dealt the bowls of wrath.

I disagree it is clear they are two separate events..
One can descend with out comming to the ground.
Why would Christ come all the way down just to have to go back up to meet us in the air?

It doesn't say it will be after it either.

True it does, but it doesn't mean that he didn't go back up or take us else where.

Verse 3 says this;
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
The very fact that the mountain splits in two is still future just as is the Lord's foot touching the top of the mountain.

Doesn't matter it says it in Zec 14. which is still future.

Well it does say what it clearly says.

Yes he will descend the same way He left. but at the rapture he will not come all the way.

If the rapture is post trib How do you explain his coming as a theif in the night???
MB

 

I'm pretty sure it means Christ's representative.

You lost me. Why would the Pope be "coming down?" Especially if he's not a believer (if he is the antichrist, he will not be), he will not be raptured or whatever.

I know many think this; I'm just always thinking that we don't every really know these prophecies. People in the OT couldn't figure out the prophecies and I don't think we can, either.

 

The way Jesus left us with it is Acts 1:11 -- "...this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." I'm just saying that perhaps he will "stage" the whole return with himself in the "lead role."

In the OT they were unknown -- in the NT these MYSTERIES were revealed. It is really encumbent upon us to figure them out and be good "stewards of the mysteries of God," 1Cor 4:1. The rapture is a mystery -- the blindness of Israel in part is a mystery. These are just 2 eschatological mysteries that we ought to inform ourselves about if we are to be good stewards.

skypair

 

Amillennialism, itself is a simple teaching: There are two peoples on earth- saved and unsaved. When Christ shall come. He shall judge all-saved on His right hand, unsaved on his left side. The righteous will enter eternal life. The wicked will enter eternal punishment.

I have been reading several amill sites. I feel that one amill site is very clear and simple. I would like you to read it - http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/Amil.html

I like it. It explaining very clear and simple.

I do not believe Jesus gave complex and deep teaching to his disciples, such as Matthew chapter 13; Matthew chapter 24-25; John 5:27-29; John 6:39,40,44, & 54('last day'), etc. I believe Christ gave simple and clear teaching to disciples, so, He wants them and Christians to understand of His teachings.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

MB,

Later I will reply back to you everything as what you saying with scriptures. Please be patience with me.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Hello Amy,
I didn't read all the posts here so I apologize if I repeat something, but this is a subject I have studied for many years. There are two basic views of eschatology which represent the two extremes of Biblical exegesis.
The premillennial view is an example of extreme literalism that rejects the spiritual interpretation of much of Scripture. You will find that the Christian premillennial view has much in common with the Rabbinic Messianic view, and rightly so, millennialism itself is the adoption of these Rabbinic interpretations during the early centuries of the church, so these are not new ideas but they actually predate Christianity.

Both the Christian and the Rabbinic extremist schools make the same mistake; they limit the meaning of eschatological doctrines to a literal-only view. For the Jewish people, this means rejecting the Messianic claims of Jesus on the basis that Jesus has not fulfilled the Messianic promises in the literal sense that their interpretation demands. For the Christian, this means accepting the Messianic claims of Jesus but pushing off into the future any actual fulfillment of the Messianic promises because, again, Jesus has not fulfilled the Messianic promises in the literal sense their interpretation demands. I believe this extreme literalizing of Scripture is wrong and leads to some serious problems, not only for Rabbinic Jews, but for Premillennial Christians as well.

The other extreme is full Preterism, which rejects the literal interpretation of much of Scripture, thus rejecting the physical return of Jesus, the resurrection of the body, and a literal new heavens and earth.

I believe both these extremes have many problems that ultimately lead to error and that the truth, as is so often the case, lies somewhere in the middle with a more balanced view that accepts both a spiritual and a literal interpretation of the Messianic promises.

I have moved through the years to what is called a "Partial Preterist" view, which simply means I believe the bulk of the Revelation speaks of things that occurred during the generation of the 1st Coming of Christ (Revelation 4:1 – 20:3), that the 1000 years is the long period which we are in now when the saints reign with Christ in this world (Revelation 20:4 – 20:6), and that the 1000 years will end with the return of Jesus, the resurrection and judgment of all men, and the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 20:7 – 21:8). In this simple chronology of the Revelation, the 1000 years is the long period that elapses between Jesus’ 1st Advent and his 2nd.

In this view, of course the "kingdom of Jesus” is viewed as a spiritual kingdom . . . it is nothing less than the Kingdom of God, which is heaven, which is the only “kingdom” Jesus ever preached. Please note that the Revelation does not say that Jesus' kingdom and reign will last 1000 years, so the whole idea of a 1000 year Messianic kingdom is itself false. Rather, the Scripture is quite clear that Jesus will reign forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end (Daniel 7:13-14). It is the saints whose reign the Revelation says will last 1000 years, and that 1000 years is the Gospel age, the church age, the long period of time that elapses between Jesus' 1st Advent and his 2nd.

There are many things I could say about the two extremist views, but the most important to me is not so much the eschatological doctrines themselves, it really doesn’t matter to me how it all ends. But what is of the utmost importance to me is how do these various eschatological doctrines affect the doctrines of the Gospel? After all, it’s the Gospel that saves us, not eschatology. And I find the premillennial view contradicts some of the most fundamental doctrines of the Gospel itself, and that is what ultimately led me out of the extremely literal Premillennial view to a far more Gospel-oriented view which doesn’t see things as either/or between spiritual and literal, but rather as both spiritual and literal.

In the partial preterist view the Messianic promises have first a spiritual fulfillment during this Christian church age which began with the 1st Advent of Christ. During this time the saints are kings who reign with Jesus and priests who minister the truth of God through preaching the Gospel of Christ and storming the gates of hell to set free those who are captive to the powers of darkness and bringing them into the Kingdom of God through the new birth. When the 1000 years are finished, the Lord will physically return to this earth, there will be a resurrection and judgment of all men, the wicked will be destroyed and the saints will then enjoy the literal fulfillment of all the promises of God . . . of immortality in a new heavens and new earth where there will be no more death, or pain, or suffering, or weeping, but our God will dwell with us face to face . . . forever.

So I think the whole literal versus spiritual argument is a false premise that leads to a false conclusion. The Scriptures are to be understood as having both a spiritual and a literal fulfillment, each in its own time. The 1000 years is the time of the spiritual fulfillment, the literal will come to pass in the world to come, the new heavens and new earth. Only those who take part in the spiritual fulfillment will live to see the literal fulfillment.

This is, in my opinion, a far more Gospel-oriented view.

Hope this may give you some new thoughts on these things.

May we all grow in the grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to whom be all power and glory in heaven and in earth both now and forever.

In Christ,
Pigrimer

 

Pilgrimer,

Very interesting indeed. I had a long-time friend "convert" to a very vocal FULL Preterist about 6 years ago and up until then I never even HEARD of Preterism. I have studied it some and initially I thought it clearly over spritualized everything. Partial Preterism is more Scripturally sound, do you have any links to study this more?

Also what is (are) the prinary difference(s) between Amil and partial preterism?

 

Satan was cast down out of heaven by the lifting up of Christ on the Cross . . .

"Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This [Jesus] said, signifying what death he should die." John 12:31-33

The crucifixion of Jesus was the defeat and downfall of Satan.

Satan being bound in the pit simply means he is now confined to the regions of darkness and no longer reigns over the nations as he did in the days before the coming of the light of the Gospel.

"The nations which sat in darkness have seen great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up." Matthew 4:16

The coming of the Gospel and it's promulgation among the nations has brought to light the truth of God so that the nations no longer abide in darkness but they have the light of the Gospel. Those who reject the Gospel walk not in blind ignorance, they walk in wilfull disobedience.

Nor is Satan able any longer to break free of that chain which binds him in the pit to come before the throne of God to accuse the saints.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." Romans 8:1-2

In the former days, during the Old Testament age, the two witnesses who faithfully testified the things of God were the Law and the Prophets. The Law and the Prophets were all fulfilled and came to an end during the generation of Jesus' 1st Advent which, from a strictly historical perspective, began in 7 B.C. and ended in 73 A.D.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

I'm afraid I can't offer any, but you could google "Partial Preterist" and see what might be out there. Let me know if you find any that offer a solid Scriptural and historical foundation for their views. But there is a very good site called "PreteristArchive.com" that you might find interesting, although I think that site is primarily full preterist. I have arrived at my own views through years of study of Scripture as well as being a student of New Testament history and archaeology.

A Partial Preterist can be either amillennial or postmillennial. I tend to think the amillennial partial preterist view is truer to the Gospel.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer