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An honest look at "free-will" #1: Gen.3:4-6

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by canadyjd, Feb 10, 2007.

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  1. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Candy:

    "The deception of Satan was that Eve could use her own human will when "knowing" good and evil."

    GE:

    The deception of Satan was that Eve could use her own human will! Spot on!

    After "knowing" good and evil, it was too late -- poor dead sinner! To what use had been her knowledge, wisdom or will?
     
    #181 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Mar 24, 2007
  2. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I don't know what "spot on" means, but I will assume you agree. And you are "spot on"---
    peace to you:praying:
     
    #182 canadyjd, Mar 24, 2007
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    the point is that when you make empty claims without proof - they can easily be turned back to you as the same claim for the other point of view.

    It is instructive that empty claims of that form - are in fact empty. It is the EVIDENCE that supports them or fails to support that has substance.

    Hopefully this is now obvious to you.
     
    #183 BobRyan, Mar 24, 2007
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Gen 3:22 regarding the condition of "KNOWING BOTH good and evil" is the SAME term used in Gen 4 for Adam knowing Eve. It is a term for "knowing by experience".

    That is where your position totally falls apart because EVERYONE can see that BEFORE the fall of man BEFORE sin -- the ONLY thing mankind knew "by experience" was OBEDIENCe - was God who is "Good".

    You have not been able to refute this glaringly obvious point in all this time sir.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #184 BobRyan, Mar 24, 2007
  5. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    GE:

    I can scarcely find fault with this. I think your "peace to you" quite apt after your explanation. What' Bob's problem then?
     
    #185 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Mar 25, 2007
  6. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I told you the very words (Identified by # and from my Hebrew bible, not "Strong's") that are used in Gen. 3 and 4. One is "daath" and the other is "yada". I explained how "daath" is formed and what it means in context (knowledge) and what "yada" means. That is real substance, but you cannot see it.

    You then use my words to claim that YOU gave me the words by #, which you most certainly did not, (and are even refusing to acknowledge they are different words), and that, sir, is intellectually dishonest, and worse.

    Coming from someone who does not even know what his own quoted sources are saying; I don't think I will accept what you see as obvious.

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #186 canadyjd, Mar 25, 2007
  7. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    You are simply wrong. I have explained in great detail. You reject the plain meaning of the text and insert your own belief in its place.

    There is no sense in discussing this further with you. No amount of facts will sway you, I am confident.

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #187 canadyjd, Mar 25, 2007
  8. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I'm not really sure.

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #188 canadyjd, Mar 25, 2007
  9. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    You have refuted your own argument with your own quoted scholar. Here he is again, YOUR SOURCE:

    I notice your quoted source, Mr. Jamieson, agrees with me. Eve acquired an "experience" of "good and evil" after her "eyes were opened".

    What is even better, in terms of slaying your repeated assertions that they already "knew" good by experience, is that he clearly says she acquired the experience of the "happiness of a holy...condition", AFTER her "eyes were opened". That means AFTER she ate of the tree, which is AFTER the fall.

    How embarrassing for you to be shown your error by the very scholar you quoted to support your position.

    But on the bright side, you now know of a scholar that agrees with what I have been saying.

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #189 canadyjd, Mar 25, 2007
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Proof of that is seen in Gen 1 where God makes mankind and says "it is good" THEN in Gen THREE we see the introduction of sin.

    Jamiesson does NOT argue that man did not "know good until he sinned" NOR does the Bible make such a wild irrational claim.

    As we saw in Gen 3 AND in Gen 4 the word for "KNOW" means to "KNOW experientially". Adam EXPERIENCED obedience and then Adam EXPERIENCED rebellion.

    Obviously.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #190 BobRyan, Mar 25, 2007
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Jamieson on Gen 2 and the GOOD that Adam and Eve KNEW in the form of joyful "OBEDIENCE" and worship of the one True God BEFORE they rebelled against God.

    Jamieson NEVER argues "they had no clue what good and bad WERE"...

    As we can clearly see from the text above. Twisting it around for the readers here as Canady has done does not reflect the clear point of Jamieson's writing.


    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #191 BobRyan, Mar 25, 2007
  12. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    It's not of my concern, I know, yet still I don't understand what you two are fighting about. 'Much ado about nothing'?
     
    #192 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Mar 26, 2007
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    If Adam was created without actually knowing what GOOD WAS -- AS is being claimed - then how can you blame him for doing evil? He is much like a monkey in a cave - not knowing good OR evil.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #193 BobRyan, Mar 26, 2007
  14. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    BobRyan

    Like I have said previously, let's end this. I have no more to say to you, other than....

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #194 canadyjd, Mar 26, 2007
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Agreed - I believe we have both stated our positions repeatedly and have given the reasons as to why we take them.

    It is left for the reader to consider the evidence and choose.

    God's blessings.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #195 BobRyan, Mar 27, 2007
  16. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    And so with the consensus being that all that needs to be said has been said, let us deem the thread to be closed.
     
    #196 DHK, Mar 28, 2007
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