An honest look at "free-will" #1: Gen.3:4-6

In Romans 5 Paul makes his argument from the REAL fall of the REAL Adam.

In Paul's letter to Timothy Paul makes his argument from the REAL fall of the REAL Eve and the REAL temptation involved.

In Exodus 20:8-11 God makes His argument from the REAL seven day creation event. God says that mankind was to observe a REAL 7 day week because "IN SIX days GOD CREATED... and RESTED the Seventh day therefore YOU are to WORK six days and REST the seventh" Exodus 20:8-11.

But imagine if you will that Paul in Romans 6 and in his letter to Timothy - and God in his own Ten Commandments were both arguing from "an EASTER BUNNY fairy tale" to make their case!!

How "different the Bible would be read today".

in Christ,

Bob

 

Adam and Lucifer and all the Angels were created by God SINLESs - holy and perfect.

God looked and "behold it was GOOD".

The idea that God created THEM ALL EVIL IS never condoned in all of scripture. And frankly you are the first one I have found to speculate that wild idea on this board.

In Christ,

Bob

 

That is not true at all.

By simply choosing to eat the fruit (regardless of what she might choose afterward disobeying) Eve was already DEMONSTRATING the fact that a sinless perfect holy being created in the image of God AND in full obedience to God -- could ALSO CHOOSE to rebel - to transgress - to sin.

Even if NTHER ACT of sin - no other choice had been made by Eve AFTER eating the fruit - the ONE ACT ALONE showed both options were ALREADY within her grasp AS made from the very start!

The CLAIM of the Serpent was NOT that disobeying God "is not disobeying God" as some seem to imagine - (as hard as that is to believe) -- the claim of the serpent was that she would not DIE for doing it just as the serpent also ATE and clearly did not die!

But we have NO data at all from scripture saying that Eve was sinning BeFORE eating from the tree. This sinless holy being -- called Eve - was already CHOOSING obedience prior to the temptation at the tree... then that SAME sinless holy being chose rebellion! She was capable of BOTH (obviously) and that demonstrates free will from the very start!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Eve gets a bum rap. The sin was Adam's, who was right there, yet did not bother to involve himself.

 

canadyjd,

bmerr here. I think you might be missing the point. Look at what Satan brings their focus to first, "Yea hath God said..." Satan, then as now, attacks the word of God, attempting to make men doubt it and call it into question. I would grant you that Satan's aim was to decieve Eve into thinking that she could make a better choice than God had made, but to deny her free will is to effectually blame God for her sin, isn't it?

Adam and Eve were given the same choice that all men have been given, namely to either obey God or to disobey God. They had God's word on the subject of the forbidden fruit - "Thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die".

They were then presented with a lie from Satan, "Thou shalt not surely die."

They, as most men do today, chose to believe a lie from Satan, and reject the word of God.

Free will then, free will now.

In Christ (by choice),

bmerr

 

canadyjd,

bmerr here. Oh, I'd agree that the "you'll be as God" thing was part of the deception. My point, (though apparently not made well), was that Adam and Eve had the same choice that all men have had: to either obey God, or disobey God. God said one thing, Satan said something else, and they opted to go with what Satan said. It's a choice any responsible person has to make day in and day out.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

The deception was one with the ultimate goal of getting Adam and Eve to rebel against God. God gave Adam and Eve with a will to choose to obey or disobey. He created them with a free will, the ability to choose. They made choices all the time. They made choices in their diet, in their conversation with the Lord as they walked and talked with them. They made choices in what they did from day to day. The fall did not occur immediately after creaton. We are not told how much time elapsed between Creation and the fall. It could have been quite some time. God did not force them to do anything.

Up to the point that Satan entered into the garden and tempted her to do wrong, there was no evil. They had not known evil up to that point. Even with the command not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, there was no such thing as evil. They had known only good. Only good existed in the garden. They chose only good. The temptation was to disobey God. Once they disobeyed God, then they would experience evil, and their eyes would be open to what evil was. They would see the difference between good and evil, something that they had never known before.
"And their eyes were opened." Opened to what? Opened to the difference between good and evil. Opened to the fact that they had disobeyed God, and now there would be a consequence for their disobedience. That is why they tried to hide from God. They knew they had sin. They had now experienced evil.

 

Proposition was:

"An honest look at "free-will" #1: Gen.3:4-6"

Now does that not say it all? Adam's was free will if ever there was. What did he do the very first moment he exercised that free will of his?

Whose will since has been free?
Everybody's : free to sin, yes, everybody's!

It's very freedom is the bondage of fallen man's will.
There no escaping the truth, the confrontation of ourselves with ourselves . . . except through the grace of our sovereign and gracious Lord God through Jesus Christ.

 

As DHK has noticed: "And their eyes were opened."

 

Originally Posted by beloved57
I disagree, if adam adam and eve where sinless, how did they bring forth the fruit of sin ? The bible teaches against that !

Matt 7

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The scripture says they were good, yeah very good, but no where does it say sinless !

BobRyan:

Adam and Lucifer and all the Angels were created by God SINLESs - holy and perfect.

God looked and "behold it was GOOD".

The idea that God created THEM ALL EVIL IS never condoned in all of scripture. And frankly you are the first one I have found to speculate that wild idea on this board."

GE:

You, BobRyan, and I, have before debated this enigma. I came up with the solution Adam fell into sin the very first day of his life -- although he was created perfect and sinless. You objected the same way then as you now object - quite rightly - to beloved57. But there is a great difference between saying or holding that Adam was created sinful, and that he fell directly after that he was created perfect and sinless.

The Bible contains NTHER HISTORY of Adam or Eve.

 

There was no evil to know. God is not the author of evil. Everything that God created was Good. He created all things in six days. He looked on his creation and behold "it was very good. There was no evil in it, and that included in Adam and Eve. God did not create evil in Adam and Eve. They were created in a state of innocence. There was no evil. There was no evil to choose. They could only realize evil once they had disobeyed God.
Let me give you another example. Remeber that Adam is "the first Adam," and Christ is the "Second Adam." As Adam was created without sin, so Christ came without sin. As Adam was tempted with sin and failed, so Christ was tempted with sin, and overcame. It is not sin to be tempted. The temptation in and of itself is not sin. The ability to choose "evil" if you want to call it that, is not sin. Otherwise Christ would be a sinner. Christ did not know sin. He was sinless. He never chose to sin. He was tempted, and yet without sin. It was not so with Adam. He was tempted and gave into sin. Notice also that the sin is not imputed to Eve, but to Adam. It was Adam that directly rebelled against the authority of God. Eve was deceived. Adam rebelled. The fall was in Adam's rebellion, not so much in Eve's deception.

 

Eve told the snake that SHE KNEW it was wrong. She knew that what the Serpent said was not correct. She stated the truth when confronted with a lie.

 

Breaking of the Tenth Commandment --- was man's very first sin. 'Sin entered', through craving, desire, ambition. The first sin was spiritual and invisible but to God. Eve like Adam were already guilty of death even before they reached out and ate of the tree. They disbelieved God. That was the first principle of sin then, and is the first principle of sin still.

 

When God spoke to Adam and Eve - nothig of what you said was mentioned. Rather - only the incident at the tree.

God did not say "Because you desired ambition before getting to the tree we are kicking you out of the garden".

But it is nice to imagine those little Bible "additions" I suppose.

In Christ,

Bob