1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

An honest look at "free-will" #1: Gen.3:4-6

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by canadyjd, Feb 10, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Eve and God appeared to AGREE on what was right and the fact that she did wrong.

    Nothing could be more obvious. Inventing the idea "God said to do one thing BUT I can eventually be persuaded to do ANOTHER thing - because I don't know that rebellion is wrong" is something you have to "make up".

    The Bible NEVER SAYS that Adam and Eve did not "know right from wrong". But the Bible DOES say that about tiny infants that can not talk or walk.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,944
    Likes Received:
    1,661
    Faith:
    Baptist
     
  3. Rev. Lowery

    Rev. Lowery New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2005
    Messages:
    344
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi!

    When answering the OP's question we must remember that "free-will" means that we have control and in reality we don't God is always in control and is always sovereign. What we are is a free agent, meaning our decisions are ours to make!

    Gods Will is always sovereign!
     
  4. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    9,025
    Likes Received:
    8
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    GE:

    Genesis also says Eve found the fruit attractive to eat of. That is desire. That was sin then as is sin today. Sin has always been the same. Nothing that wasn't sin then has become sin now. Discern! is all I can advise you.

    Then certainly was man 'fundamentally changed by the fall'. Whereas first they were not sinners, they now were. Whereas first they had free will, their will now had become enslaved to their fallen, prone to sin, nature. They had become the slaves of sin and the devil and their own inclinations - in their very being; which they before had not been.
     
  5. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,944
    Likes Received:
    1,661
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It is not a sin, in an of itself, to "desire" something. It is not a sin to admire the beauty of God's creation. Discern the text, sir. Don't add to it.

    So you must agree with me that mankind does not have "free-will" today, since every will has been enslaved to sin, prone to sin and the inclinations of the devil?

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #45 canadyjd, Feb 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 20, 2007
  6. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0


    HP: Where in the world did you arrive at the conclusion that the concept of free will choices in men is paramount to “always choosing the good instead of evil?” You sure did not get it from the verse you quote in Genesis.
     
  7. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,944
    Likes Received:
    1,661
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You are misquoting me. To "be like God" when "knowing good and evil" is to always choose the good over the evil. Satan told Eve she could "be like God" when "knowing good and evil". It is a deception.

    Are you saying the idea of "free-will" does not include the concept that every person potentially has the ability to always choose good over evil according to their own will? If not, then why not?

    peace to you:praying:
     
  8. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0


    HP: How do I misquote you when I quote you word for word? Where does Scripture or reason state or imply that “to be like God.. knowing good from evil” is "to always chose the good over the evil? "
     
  9. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,944
    Likes Received:
    1,661
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Are you saying the idea of "free-will" does not include the concept that every person potentially has the ability to always choose good over evil according to their own will? If not, then why not?

    peace to you:praying:
     
  10. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0


    HP: Are you now saying that free will is NOT that we always chose the good over evil but rather have the ‘potential’ to do so? If that is what you are trying to say, I would say this. If God is going to praise or blame man for a choice that one makes, the possibility has to exist that one could do something other than what one does under the very same set of circumstances.

    Just because one has free will in some areas in no way implies that free will must exist in all areas. I repeat, in what ever areas God attaches blame and subsequent punishment, the possibility has to exit to do something other than what one does under the very same set of circumstances.
     
  11. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,944
    Likes Received:
    1,661
    Faith:
    Baptist
    OK, look. Please don't come into the thread without reading the posts and make a bunch of accusations. I am not going to spend time correcting all your misrepresentations of what I have said.

    As far as what you said in the second paragraph, it simply has nothing to do with Gen. 3

    peace to you:praying:
     
  12. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0


    HP: Please take the time. Where have I misrepresented you? If you don't mean what your quote states, change the wording of your posts to better describe what you believe is the truth, and to at least try to eliminate misunderstandings.
     
  13. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,944
    Likes Received:
    1,661
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Read the posts. You'll figure it out.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  14. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0


    HP: Who said that the first pair did not understand what it was to obey and disobey? They sure knew enough immediately after sinning to hide themselves from their Creator, God. Certainly having never sinned they had not experienced guilt or shame, but how does this equate to not having the ability to understand what it was to obey or to disobey, and the associated fellowship that they knew full well existed while in a state of obedience?

    Certainly they did not comprehend the heinousness of sin and the terrible consequences of their choices as God indeed knew, but to say that they ‘did not know what good is’ or that they had no concept of disobedience or possess a free will to either obey or disobey, is to simply adding into the text something that is not expressed or implied.
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Eve had to be argued IN to sinning. The text says that "When she SAW that it was good" -- God's statement was that it was bad -- Satan was trying to "prove" God wrong.

    A convincing argument on his part needed to DECEIVE Eve.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    God "is not WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2Peter 3.

    God's WILL apparently is to allow for FREE WILL even though HE is not willing for any to perish.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,944
    Likes Received:
    1,661
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Please show me where God told Eve the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was "bad"? God said don't eat the fruit or you will die. No mention of "bad", according to my bible anyway.

    The text says when she saw it was "good for food." Not that it was "good" in a general sense of "goodness", but that it was "good for food", i.e., edible. If you leave out the "for food", you change the context and the meaning.

    At least we agree Eve was deceived.

    By the way, have you ever answered my question? If Adam and Eve had "free-will" before the fall, how was their "free-will" effected by the fall? Or, do you believe the entrance of sin into their lives had no effect on their will?

    peace to you:praying:
     
  18. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,944
    Likes Received:
    1,661
    Faith:
    Baptist


    Scripture says Eve was deceived into eating the fruit. Adam "listened" to his wife. There is no mention in the Gen. text of obeying or disobeying.



    Because sin had entered into their lives after the fall.



    Because the fruit was from the tree of "the knowledge of good and evil". It is simple, then, to understand that they did not have the knowledge of good and evil prior to eating the fruit. Obeying is good. Disobeying is evil. They didn't know what either was until after eating the fruit.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  19. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0

    HP: Neither is there any mention of sin in the verse in question. Could I logically assume that sin did not occur, arguing from what might be seen by some as, at least in some far out sense, silence?




    HP: Sin entered as a direct result of their sinful choice to eat of the forbidden tree.


    HP: Only if you desire to take Satan’s words as fact, when we know that he is a liar and deceiver.


    HP: You have no proof of that at all from Scripture, other than again, Satan’s word. When God told the pair that He created and granted to them reason to understand His commands and understand that their would be dire consequences for disobedience, they did not have to understand the nature of those consequences or to experience them to disobey a known and understood command of God. As BR aptly pointed out, they had to be convinced to disobey. Deceived or not, they willingly chose to disobey a known commandment of God, and in the process sinned and became guilty before God. Nothing can be clearer in Scripture.
     
  20. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,944
    Likes Received:
    1,661
    Faith:
    Baptist


    No. We know from other scripture (Romans 5) that sin entered through the transgression of the command not to eat the fruit.





    Scripture says sin entered by the transgression of the command. They ate the fruit (transgression of the command) and then sin entered. Scripture does not say, that I have ever seen, that sin entered when Eve "made the choice", but prior to eating the fruit.




    You are confused, I think. God planted the tree and gave it's name: The tree of the knowledge of good and evil.



    You appear to be saying that sin entered through the process of "choosing" to disobey God. That is clearly a misrepresentation of what scripture says. Scripture says "Eve was deceived" not "Eve chose to disobey". Scripture says sin entered through the transgression of the command, not "sin entered as soon as they made the choice to disobey God."

    peace to you:praying:
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...