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Featured Anathema and the RCC

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Nov 19, 2017.

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  1. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Does the Church condemn those who disagree with its teachings?

    Ask any Catholic and he will say "of course not!".

    The RCC has declared "If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema" (session VI, can. 9).

    Sounds like a condemnation correct? Not so fast, there is an explanation of course from the RCC.

    "When the Catholic Church uses the term, such as at the Council of Trent and in its official documents, it is in the sense of excommunication or being cut off from the life-giving unity of the Church. If someone knowingly and publicly denies a defined (de fidei definita) doctrine of the Catholic Church, he can be formally declared to be excommunicated, meaning that he no longer enjoys unity with the Catholic Church."

    You see? The RCC is not condemning anyone to hell, you just won't enjoy the unity with the Catholic Church. They go on to say...

    "This use of the term anathema has a very precise meaning: Let him be cut off from the Church, not let him be damned to hell. And this is done by the Church in her wisdom as a way of trying to bring the one in error to his senses"

    That's all. The RCC just wants you to come to your senses, they are not condemning anyone to hell.

    All sounds good right? Well, there is a bit more to it than that. The RCC does not stop short of condemnation for the unrepentant sinner opposing their declarations.

    Here is the complete paragraph, I did tease with holding a little back...

    "This use of the term anathema has a very precise meaning: Let him be cut off from the Church, not let him be damned to hell. And this is done by the Church in her wisdom as a way of trying to bring the one in error to his senses - before it's too late and he is damned to hell by virtue of his obstinacy."

    There it is, as the RCC has said,     "The Catholic Church has no power to damn anyone to hell (that, of course, is each individual's unique prerogative - if you go to hell, you choose to go there),"

    "An anathema or excommunication is designed to remind the sinner of his eventual fate if he doesn't repent. That's why the Church is always ready to absolve and receive back the repentant sinner. That's why those who willingly disobey the Church's teachings may be anathematized - so that they will recognize the grave danger of such a course and be willing to return to the fold."

    Thus, if you are a Protestant, Baptist or any other Christian who says your are saved by your faith alone in Jesus Christ, according to the RCC, you are choosing to damn yourself to hell.

    Resource: Does the Church condemn those who disagree with its teachings? | Catholic Answers
     
    #1 steaver, Nov 19, 2017
  2. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    I’m curious...have you ever been a Catholic? And do you have any relatives who are Catholic?
     
    #2 Earth Wind and Fire, Nov 20, 2017
  3. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    Does St. Paul condemn those who disagree with his teachings? In Galatians 1:6-9 it says:

    "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel":

    "Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ".

    "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed".

    "As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed".

    So, taking a cue from St. Paul, the Church with it's rightful authority has made a decision on what to do with those who pervert the gospel of Christ. The Church uses the word "anathema" and St. Paul uses the word "accursed" - same meaning, no?

    The problem with you is that for some reason you discount the fact that the Catholic Church also preaches that we are saved by faith, which is an integral part of the salvation narrative. Conversely, the Scriptures also say that faith is not the only thing that saves us, so why do you discount that reality as well?
     
    #3 Adonia, Nov 20, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
  4. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    No. The only association I have with Catholics is on this BB. It is quite helpful to have them here for it helps us see the actual result of RCC teachings.
     
    #4 steaver, Nov 20, 2017
  5. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    The question is not why do I discount the false teaching of salvation by works? The question is why do I choose to go to hell for saying justification is by faith alone? Right? Don't you agree with the answer given in the Catholic website? There are plenty of Catholics on the BB reading these threads. Not one has stepped up and said the answer given on the Catholic website is false. According to the RCC's own declarations, and the explanations of a Catholic website, all who reject the RCC's teaching on faith alone are damned to hell.
     
    #5 steaver, Nov 20, 2017
  6. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    I just don’t pay any attention to anything they do however I don’t persecute them either. Those who choose to stay in it are free to do so...at least in the USA which guarantees freedom of religion.
     
    #6 Earth Wind and Fire, Nov 20, 2017
  7. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    The Catholic Church is a master of doublespeak/doublethink.

    What constitutes faith according to the Catholic Church?

    Not only belief in the Bible but the pronouncements of the Magisterium and ex cathedra papal pronouncements.

    Technically i have been excommunicated by the RCC because I do not accept their pronouncements.

    Now this was abundantly clear to all of us who preceded Vatican II and of course i will (according to the RCC) be consigned to hell not only because I am of "the Separated Brethren" but a defector as well.

    HankD
     
    #7 HankD, Nov 20, 2017
  8. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Join the crew :Laugh
     
    #8 Earth Wind and Fire, Nov 20, 2017
  9. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    God alone will decide all things at the proper time. His mercy knows no bounds, and like every other human here on planet earth - those Bishops of the Catholic Church, you and me, your Pastor, other religious leaders, we all will get judged for our actions in our lives. I'm leaving it all to Him - and that sounds like the best way to go to me.
     
    #9 Adonia, Nov 20, 2017
  10. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!

    HankD
     
    #10 HankD, Nov 20, 2017
  11. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    And make sure you beat your chest as you go through that exercise!

    The neighborhood has finally jettisoned there old gay RC pastor. In reality he has a Eastern European name that we distort to “Father Peculiar” that is quite appropriate for his personality :Laugh.

    Anyway I have toyed with the idea of going to the old parrish and telling them that I’m considering coming back to the fold and finding out what they would do... what penance I would have to go through.... I think that would be fun.
     
    #11 Earth Wind and Fire, Nov 20, 2017
  12. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Sounds like a plan! Tell me if you would, does this loyalty to the RCC have anything to do with family ties? Of course you don’t have to answer that if you don’t want to. I only ask because most of my family are Catholic and they look on in horror at my leaving...those are ties that sometimes bind.
     
    #12 Earth Wind and Fire, Nov 20, 2017
  13. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Persecute them? Neither do I. Nor JW's nor Mormons. However I do go after false teachings.
     
    #13 steaver, Nov 20, 2017
  14. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    So you do not believe in the RCC's declarations? It's a crap shoot and we will just let God decide. Well that's fine, but then do not go about declaring the RCC is any final authority on Christian doctrines, for you do not really believe it then.
     
    #14 steaver, Nov 20, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    It is always amusing to see non-Catholics (and a lot of Catholics) try to explain Catholic dogma and canon law.

    The beauty of the Latin Rite tradition is that dogma is whatever it says it is.

    Eight hundred years ago, Boniface VIII could proclaims that "Now, therefore, we declare, say, determine and pronounce that for every human creature it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman pontiff."

    Trent anathemized the Reformers (and sympathizers). But that's really a canon law distinction; it pronounced that people with specific incorrect doctrine (aka justification by faith alone) were to be worthy of anathema, but apparently the church apparatus seldom got around to making specific anathemas (a court decision) and finally got around to tossing the whole system in 1983. Of course, most of those might be found guilty of such heinous crimes didn't give a fig about it. Hard to think the Reformers were worried much about what the cardinals and bishops thought about them.

    And then you get to Vatican II and its successors.

    Those are Vatican pronouncements. I often listen to David Anders (a converted Presbyterian) on EWTN radio (hey, it's the best thing on the radio at lunchtime) and even he grudgingly concedes that Protestants are not barred from heaven on the basis of their beliefs — but it may be more difficult for them because they do not have the full means of grace that the Catholic church possesses. (Anders, like converts of many kinds, is more Catholic than the pope on such things. And ETWN is very, very conservative, and I suspect that most of them would gladly revert to the Latin Mass if given the opportunity.)

    So, to return to the OP, yes, many Catholics doubt that protestants can escape hell, but that is not the official teaching. (The twist, of course, is that Catholics believe that no man's fate is determined until the end and may have a chance to repent. Even at that, protestants can plead invincible ignorance in that they had no idea that had believed wrongly and thus may escape damnation.) And I've met many Baptists who think Catholics will split hell wide open when they die.[/quote]
     
    #15 rsr, Nov 20, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
  16. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Like I said - doubletalk/doublethink.

    e.g.
    1.) When the priest consecrates the communion bread and wine it turns into the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ.

    2.) The mass is called "the bloodless sacrifice of the mass".

    They cannot both be true.

    The True Church of the Bible

    What in the world does “mystically slain” mean?
    And if He is mystically slain is it therefore the real blood of Christ or the mystical blood of Christ which is shed?

    A true verbal tap-dance of doublethink.

    HankD
     
    #16 HankD, Nov 20, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
  17. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Thump, Thump, Thump.

    HankD
     
    #17 HankD, Nov 20, 2017
  18. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Well, I was listening to David Anders on the topic today and was thinking the same thing. He wandered through a variety of texts to justify the Mass as a sacrifice (being completely out of context and missing the texts that might have supported him.) Too much Aristotelian philosophy trying to overlay a very simple command: Do this in remembrance of me.

    I think it is true that Baptists downplay the importance of the Lord's Supper, partially in a reaction against the excesses of the Latin Rite folks. Paul was clear that it is a solemn exercise, not just a stroll down memory lane. I believe that Christ is present in an extraordinary way during the Supper, else he (as Paul attested) would not have required it be continued. If we do not consume him (bring him into our very flesh and blood and spirit) we are not one with him.
     
    #18 rsr, Nov 20, 2017
  19. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Really, have we ever been one with Him? Can we be... it requires a purity way beyond human capability
     
    #19 Earth Wind and Fire, Nov 21, 2017
  20. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Who gets to be the "official"?
     
    #20 steaver, Nov 21, 2017
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