And now for the Cathars....

1. It is interesting that Predestinarian Baptist Daniel Parker held or is accused of holding a Manichean philosophy. I think he may have been partly misunderstood, but his view of the "two seeds" certainly put him in a position to be easily misunderstood.

2. This one sounds more whacko than heretical! Wonder how some Baptist ideas of today would be viewed in a thousand years?

 

"Once 'perfected' in this way, the believer was exepected to abstain from sex and indeed food."
Matt it wasn't quite that bad, perfecti were basically vegetarians. There existed a tradition of endura (suicide by hungerstrike basically), but perfecti were simply expected to eat normally with a couple of restrictions.

 

Matt,

I don't have enough information about the Cathars to prove that they were Baptists. Therefore it would be irresponsible on my part to assert that they were.

However, the charge of "Manichaean" was a standard slander that Roman Catholics used against anyone they deemed heretical. It was levelled even at Martin Luther when he first began his departure from Catholicism. Had he not been successful in his endeavors he would doubtless have gone down in history as such.

My point is, though we certainly can't make someone a Baptist merely for opposing Catholicism or infant baptism, neither should we put too much stock in the charges of the Catholic Church against a people who left so little record of their own beliefs.

Mark Osgatharp

 

My wife recently gbrought a book home from a used book store on this subject.

The Perfect Heresy , by Stephen O'Shea, (C) 2000, publ. Walker & Co., New York.

I have read only 20 pages, and it will probably be a while before I can get back to it - too many things going on right now. It seems to be very interesting and balanced in it's approach. Has some maps,paintings and woodcuttings from the time (black & white reproductions), and some modern photos of the areas in France, including the Cathedral de Ste. Cecile in Albi. (The Albigenses derived their name from this town).

It also has a short bio. sketch of the principle characters involved, placed at the beginning of the book. Very handy.

If someone has a particular question, I might be able to find some info in the book for you.

"Finally brethren, pray for us"

 

The book Montaillou is heavily based on texts written by the inquisition, so it's sourcematerial is a little biased.
Doesn't stop it from being very interesting.

 

Speaking of Albigenses, reminds me of a song from my youth (c. 1962, 3) by The Singing Nun. The song is "Dominique" and was sung in French. It begins with the chorus:

Dominique, nique, nique
S'en allait tout simplement,
Routier pauvre et chantant
En tous chemins en tous lieux,
Il ne parle que du Bon Dieu
Il ne parle que du Bon Dieu.

Dominic, oh Dominic,
O'er the land he plods along
And sings a little song
Never asking for reward,
He just talks about the Lord,
He just talks about the Lord.

GET TO THE POINT!!
OK, OK. I will.

The first verse was translated into English (anglais) as:

At a time when John Lackland,
Over England was the King,
Dominic was in the backland,
Fighting sin like anything .

The French words for the last 2 lines are:


Dominique, notre pere,
Combattit les Albigeois

literally,
Dominic, our father,
fought the Albigenses.

SO WHAT'S THE POINT?
I'm not sure, except this song was my first encounter with the term "Albigenses", and everytime I come across it I always start singing the song in my head.

 

First of all you have the name wrong it is not Cathars but Cathari... This is taken from Church History by Sylvester Hassell that I guess every Primitive Baptist owns and I know Brother Robert does too!... Actually it is relating to all those deemed Ana-Baptist or Rebaptizers which Primitives are numbered among.

Among the persecuted people of God have been the Novatians, Donatists, Cathari, Paterines, Paulicians, Petrobrusians, Henericans, Arnoldists, Albigenses, Waldenses, Lollards, Mennonites and baptists, nearly all of whom were occasionally designated Anabaptist or re-baptizers by their enemies, because they disregarded infant or unregenerate baptism, and baptize all adults, whether previously baptized or not, who, upon a credible profession of faith, applied to them for the membership in their churches-thus insisting upon a spiritual or regenerated church membership, the First and most important mark of the apostolic church.

This whole work can be found at this web site online and can also be purchased for your library at pb.org... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist

http://www.pbministries.org/History/S.%20Hassell/church_of_god.htm

 

Speaking of French --
Does anyone know how to make the BB reproduce the accent marks used in francais?

Such as, the firste "e" in "pere" should have an accent over it, and the "c" in francais should have the cedilla under it.
I can make them on my Mac, it is built into the system, but I don't know how it comes out on your Windows based machines.
Examples - - français, père.

 

Thanks rsr.

On my Mac, I just use the options key to make them. Do they display properly on the Windows machines when I do them this way??

ç é è ü ô

 

Boy did this thread take a hair pin turn... You know you could have settled this with PM's but then again I'm not the moderator anymore but let's keep it on topic and not go wandering all over France!... Maybe I should have sent a PM? ... Nah!!!!!!!... That is to easy!... Stephen you're slippin' ... Brother Glen

 

The Cathars were dualists with some apparent ties to the Bogimils. >>---->(Arose in eastern Europe in tenth century. A Macedonian monk known as "Beloved of God" - Bogomil in Salvonic - began spreading the good-and-evil news.)

Dualism had a number of adherents in the Byzantine areas. The Bogimils may have been mentors to the Cathari as they began. There are instances recorded of contact between these groups, as in this instance:

In May of 1167, a great meeting of the Cathar leaders (later called Perfect, or Perfecti ) was held in the small town of St. Félix en Lauragais, France.They came from many areas, for the first and only international conference. Somehow, the Catholic bishop in Toulouse, a days ride to the west, did not receive an invitation.

One of those who came to this meeting was Nicetas, who gave the ritual recitations in Greek, as he was from Constantinople. It is believed he was the Bishop of the Bogimil faith in Constantinople.

Nicetas' presence was important for this reason - through his fingers "passed the power of the consolamentum , the sole dualist sacrement. It transformed the ordinary believer into one of the Perfect, who then, in turn, could 'console' others ready to live their final, holy life." The Perfect had to live a flawlessly chaste and ascetic life, abstain from all forms of sexual intimacy, pray constantly, fast often, avoid all meat, etc. Any small slip - even a nibble of veal or a quick kiss - and the status of Perfect dissappeared. This backslider would have to receive the consolamentum again, and so would any whom he or she had "consoled" in the past. The consolamentum had to be immaculate to be valid.

The handing down of the consolamentum from one generation to the next, from the time (as they claimed) of the apostles, was extremely important to them. Thus was the importance of Nicetas, and his contacts to the ancient past. Many of the Perfecti gathered in St. Félix had him "reconsole" them, just to make sure of their credentials for the other world. Being a true Perfect meant not having to be reincarnated, but to be freed to join the eternal, invisible goodness.

[ Taken from The Perfect Heresy , by Stephen O'Shea, Walker Publishing Co., New York, 2000. pp.21 - 26. Quoted section from p.23.]

 

"Cathari" (Latin plural, English "Cathars") is a "grouping" name (like "Anabaptist"). It was used by outsiders to "libel by label" any group or individual challenging the impurity of the
"establishment party." It simply means "puritan"
(can you imagine how many different ideas have been presented by the "Puritans" over centuries?)

Again, as on other links, a simple reminder: if we believe the words of Jesus that "the gates of hell shall not prevail," and if we believe that
"ecclesia" demands ability to assemble, and if we agree that NT churches do not need Caesar's sword to defend them but are the poor and persecuted in days of state-established religion (Catholic or Communist, makes no difference on this point) - then our heritage is AMONG these folks. Not all of them were "baptists" in any sense; some were not even biblical in their thinking; but look at Baptists today! NT churches, however few, how-ever scattered, however differing among them-selves on some details, have existed from the days of Jesus till the present, and will continue until He comes to receive all of His own, some as His "ultimate" (still local and visible!) church, some as guests at the wedding, all to be with Him forever. Whatever error some small piece of documentation shows on any specific group, just remember the errors held by some in your own group today and ask: "Does that keep us from having any churches at all?"

Best to all - R. Charles Blair - Eph. 3:21