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And so it begins.....

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by Bro. Curtis, Sep 18, 2007.

  1. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    Churches could be all 'house churches' where members host meetings in their own homes. And it's fairly well known this was the case in the first 2 or 3 centuries of the church, because Christianity was not a recognized legal religion in Roman lands building set aside for their purpose could be destroyed and those responsible could be arrested, tortured and killed. This was the essence of there being no taxes or exemptions. Individual Christians did eventually begin to refuse to pay their personal taxes to Rome, though, and if they knew the words of Jesus this would not have been so.

    But today, the reason I do support tax exemptions for religious institutions is this: though house churches can exist, and some do, it is quite impractical for most citizens to take part and worship and grow in this way. Therefore we do need buildings and facilities, and (arguably) educated professional ministers. We carry out our freedom of worship by supporting this framework. But someone who does not support any institution(s) because of non-belief or apathy, or whatever reason, also carries out their freedom by not attending and supporting. The latter carries out their freedom and pays nothing for the privilege, so why shouldn't those who do attend and support have to pay for their equal freedom?
     
  2. rmered

    rmered New Member

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    Interesting story.
     
  3. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    And yet all over the world churches meet in buildings without any tax exemption. Why do American Christians think they are due a privilege that most churches would never dream of?
     
  4. Ivon Denosovich

    Ivon Denosovich New Member

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    I don't think churches or oganizations should be taxed. (Only individuals, just makes it fair.) However, C4K, it takes an honest-to-God man of principle to support raising taxes against his own vested interest and you have my respect. Also, my dissent. But my respect nonetheless.
     
  5. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    No problems with that view - thanks for bringing it up
     
  6. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4 New Member

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    Again, the reason for the tax exempt status is that the churches cerve the community through various services. Although I would agree that any church who is not serving the community in some way should pay taxes. We probably should be required to provide evidence of this ongoing service to the community. To many churches are most likely getting away with this. If they are not serving the community they should pay taxes.
     
  7. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    There is simply no biblical nor constitutional reason for churches to be exempt from taxation or for givers to receive tax exemption on their giving.
     
  8. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4 New Member

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    Likewise there is nothing, biblically or Constitutionally, prohibiting it. Donations given to charities that provide services to the community have been declared as tax exempt. No reason to exclude the church from this.
     
  9. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus New Member

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    And so it begins....

    CK4,
    Dear Brother, I am about to have revival. I mean I thought about trying to walk across the atlantic just to shake your hand. You have portrayed a scriptural position and a true American position in your posts on this thread as a 99.999999%er. I only saw one little flicker of difference in what you said and you have spoken wisely and I pray our men here on the board will re-read your posts and ask the Lord to help them understand.
    Thank you and God bless you.
    Bartimaeus
     
  10. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus New Member

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    And so it begins....

    If I may as a latecomer address an issue that has been brought up many times before and has risen it's ugly head again in this thread.
    To paraphrase: "Why should the church get out of paying taxes, they accept gov't benefits, ie...police and fire protection, yada yada yada...."

    The members of our church do pay taxes and those taxes seem to support what is commonly called benefits. They pay taxes at work, at the grocery store, at the gas station, at the library, at the doctor's office, on and on and on and on.... they pay inheritance tax, property tax, SSI Tax, on and on and on. Now......I am going to vote for you at the next political election if you say "the church not paying taxes is wrong"
    You and I pay our taxes and it should support our living no matter where we are geographically. If we are in our church building it should be covered.

    Now let me address another issue commonly used and already prevalent on this thread.
    The SCOTUS has already ruled. US vs BJU, the C3 not for profit is a benefit. If a church or a para church or a dog pound is a C3 organization it is receiving BENEFITS from the United States Gov't. This is now an established legal historical fact that cannot be disputed by opinion or even lower court case law.

    Remember when they help you they can hinder you. When they support your building programs by not for profit gifts........one day they can say we gave you the opportunity to grow and go now we want our part.
    Abraham said, I will take nothing from you because I do not want it to be said that you made me strong when it was my God that sustained me. (personal paraphrase)

    Come Sheckles, Come shackles!
    Bartimaeus
     
  11. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4 New Member

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    Well the Supreme court at one time also said black people were property.

    If the church rcieves benefits and passes on benefits to the community in the same value then the end effect is the community recieves those benefits not the church.
     
  12. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus New Member

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    "We should probably be required to provide evidence....." Dear brother do you even for one instant understand what you are advocating here? This is being done in China and in Viet Nam as we speak. Have you any idea where this would go and where it would end up in the final picture? The gov't beurourat who shuts down our church today for whatever (the rules that they arbitrarily change at their own whim) will shut down your church tomorrow. Remember those who make the rules win the game. Please rethink your position. Please do not be named among those who would deny freedom and liberty. I am praying for you.

    Bartimaeus
     
  13. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4 New Member

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    Maybe you should go back and read my post again. At least quote the whole thing so that it stays in context which does not even come close to your assertion.
     
  14. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles New Member

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    Church members do indeed pay taxes. So do people who don't go to your church. Why should they subsidize your religious institution? The church should pay its own way. To do otherwise is to compel a man or woman to support a religion they may not believe. If churches were taxed, the personal taxes could be lowered.
     
  15. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    Should the Red Cross "pay its own way?" I just looked up my local branch under property tax records, and they are completely exempt. Its school taxes alone (very high around here) would amount to almost $28,000.
     
  16. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles New Member

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    Subsidizing the Red Cross is not subsidizing a particular religion.
     
  17. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus New Member

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    Please forgive me I thought I had your whole quote as a header and then I was posting the part that carried the greatest impact. So now I have the whole thing in front of us again.

    A few questions if you don't mind.

    1) Please help us to understand your position by advising us where you received your information that "the reason for status is that the churches and cerve (sic) the community through various services"'
    2) John Marshall wrote "the power to tax involves the power to destroy" 1819. The next statement you make concerning "what you agree with...." Can you please advise me just who would go around making the descision on which church to tax and which church should not be taxed? Do you understand that taxing a church could virtually take us back two hundred years in time when our Baptist fore fathers in America were whipped, beaten, suffered the loss of all their earthly possessions,exiled and jailed because they would not consent to governmental (Congregational Church controlled) taxes to support Congregational Church ministers? Are you a Baptist? Do you not know your own church history?
    3) "We probably should be required to show evidence of this ongoing service to the community" Now I have quoted the whole statement. I remain in the same position, do you? If so, who will write the requirements? Will it be a new governmental department born to investigate churches who may not be serving the community? (By the way our church serves the Lord). Will it be the Dept. of Homeland Security?
    I'll not trouble you any farther, I hope you see that what you are advocating is not freedom. There are all kinds of little self important "investigators" running around in countries that are making martyrs. Do you really want to make America like that?

    Bartimaeus
     
  18. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    Nevertheless, does every taxpayer believe in or advocate what the Red Cross does?
     
  19. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4 New Member

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    In order to be exempt under § 501(c)(3), an organization must file an application for exemption of Form 1023 showing that it meets the following tests: (1) It must be organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, literary or educational purposes, for the prevention of cruelty to children or animals, or for the purpose of testing consumer products for public safety, or to foster national or international amateur sports competition (but only if no part of its activities involves provision of athletic facilities or equipment);
    http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/5013c.html


    I have no clue what this means. Can you clarify it a bit?


    I do not think it is as complicated as you are making it out to be. I realize you are in disagreement with me and that is fine. It certainly sin't the slippery slope you are making it out to be. If taxes werent so excessive and used for such ungodly endeavors as teaching evolution and payng for abortions paying them wouldn't bother me at all. The socialists / Communists are always looking for another money pot to enslave people with. God Bless
     
  20. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles New Member

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    Basing one's religious convictions on non-essentials such as teaching science in public schools is a dangerous path to pursue. Plus, if you don't like the amount of taxes, elect people who will change them. It isn't the principle of taxes you object to, just that you deem them excessive?

    Yes, darn old Joe Stalin and his "socialist / Communist" buddies can't wait to enslave you with your taxes. What year is this?
     
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