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And we let them do it again

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Jailminister, May 17, 2004.

  1. massdak

    massdak Active Member
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    yes, incidentally it is indecent
     
  2. Bro. James Reed

    Bro. James Reed New Member

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    I was just laughing about that typo LadyEagle/massdak.

    Actually, I was wondering how someone could flash people on a message board. [​IMG]

    Let me pick myself up out of the gutter.

    BTW, I'm quite a bit younger than Gene and I hold to the same view as you older folks. [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  3. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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  4. onestand

    onestand New Member

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    Lady,

    If you want to talk about age and preception of the current days compared to past generations, keep in mind that history repeats itself, thus this generation experiences first hand what the older generation went through having their rights taken and destroyed.

    The above being said, once again I say age is irrelivant for means of preception. I fully grasp why it's viewed to be so important to many christians to keep the statue standing, but it doesn't change that just because a momument is no longer visable that the standard must lower or the 10 commands of God should go ignored or unkept. It's the children of God who keep those, not a tablet of stone. If it's not the stone that carries concern but the purpose and depth behind it then continue the purpose and depth....WE DO NOT NEED A HUNK OF STONE TO DO THAT..it's US, those who are called according to HIS purpose.
     
  5. JeffM

    JeffM New Member

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    Funny thing. In their attempt to de-God America, they are instituting their own religion.

    Atheism is a recongnized "belief" in the eyes of the Supreme Court (as is witchcraft, Satanism et al) and is thusly protected.

    Whether atheist want to accept it or not, Atheism is a protected "religion". It's a religion of not believing in a supreme being. All humans have an inherent desire to believe in something. We will worship something or someone. Atheist worship themselves and science. Their story of creation is evolution. Every kid in America who goes to public school is taught their religion of non-religion and every child is taught their story of creation. They rail on Christians for being self-righteous and intolerant, yet they are the poster children for self-righteousness and intolerance.

    Why we let them get away with it is beyond me.

    I believe God expects us to fight for him. It's part of our responsibility, especially here in America where our liberty is a gift from God. If we sit back and let it slip away, can you honestly except us to keep it?

    It doesn't mean worshipping a stone idol. It means being active and counter attack these atheist zealots with the same thing they throw our way. When was the last time a Christian filed a lawsuit? There is a movie that bashes Christians coming out called "SAVED". It makes Christians (Baptist in particular) out to be hateful lunatics. Do the Jews put up with this? How about the Liberals? How about the African-Americans? Of course not.

    Satan has effectively given Christians the beaten wife syndrome. We sit back and take this beating and we are afraid to stand up for ourselves. Why is this? Are we afraid to be called some names? When the ACLU shows up, we cower in fear. Christian School Principles succumb to their scare tactics. Is it because we lack faith that God will stand in our stead?

    It's time we put on the Armor of God. We all know we win in the end, but until then, lets give Satan one heck of a fight.
     
  6. GeneMBridges

    GeneMBridges New Member

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    Well, Christians do in fact file lawsuits, but generally we do it through groups like the American Center for Law and Justice. When this happening in Alabama, there were some private citizens that filed lawsuits as well. The key to filing lawsuits is to choose one's battles well, which is the key to fighting any conflict anyway.

    That said, we have to be careful not to stoop to their level. The arrows in our quiver are much different. While there's nothing wrong with filing lawsuits, per se, we should be careful we don't become a litigious as we accuse the rest of secular society of being. The best way to hand victory to an enemy is to fight just like them and in so doing become just like them.
     
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Massdak: "i had to look up that word &gt;&gt;&gt;altrusim&lt;&lt;&lt; "

    A for enthusiam.
    F for enemy identification.
    You wouldn't recognize a liberal if they had you one their
    menu for lunch :(

    GeneMBridges: "There was a day when 3000+ people a day
    were added to the church.

    BUt now here is the number:
    It takes 110,000 conversions a day to replace dying
    Christians.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. onestand

    onestand New Member

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    I believe we get so caught up in "fighting" the small things that we forget the important things.

    Think on this, had it been or if it was fighting for God, why is the monument removed? If God is for us who can be against us?
     
  9. massdak

    massdak Active Member
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    who is my enemy ed?
    did you think i thought he was a liberal?
     
  10. Jailminister

    Jailminister New Member

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    Song of Soloman 2:15 Take us the foxes, the little foxes, that spoil the vines: for our vines [have] tender grapes.

    It is not a little thing to stand for if it is for the Lord. The Lord is allowing this country to be destroyed from within, but when He returns will he find faith. It appears many have lost sight of how much God blessed this country. Just sit there and say nothing, that is your choice. I will stand.
     
  11. onestand

    onestand New Member

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    I suppose it's perspective. I don't see it as standing for the Lord, I see it as a religious point to prove and a religious symbol. There are battles far more important to fight and I'm just glad that for the time being the momunment has been taken down.
     
  12. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    So are the atheists, Muslims, wiccans, agnostics, socialists, communists, and satanists. [​IMG]
     
  13. Jailminister

    Jailminister New Member

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    I am sad, onestand, that you are GLAD the moral guidelines are being taken down in our society. They are more than stones.
     
  14. onestand

    onestand New Member

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    THIS is WHY I'm glad the stone has been taken down. Because you think the morals and standards are in that stone. If they take the bible from you or your church building will you sulk and be upset thinking they've taken your faith from you?

    When I was a little girl, one thing my grandad taught me was the reason it's so important to memorize scripture was that there might be a day in the future when bibles may no longer be allowed to be in our homes. If that day ever comes we have the Word of God in our hearts in we know it so we wouldn't need papers with words on them.

    If the truth is in US why do we need a stone to prove what we already know to be true? Why must we rely on the government to accept our faith in Christ to make it real to us? Yes, it's sad that the world and government doesn't accept truth, but it shouldn't be shocking to us. The ten commandments are in my heart I know them, I don't need the stone sitting up on a corrupt court system step to validate my beliefs,morals or standards in any form. I've heard the reasons for wanting this stone there and so far none valid enough to make it worth it. If the government takes away your spirit, love for God, your morals or standards or the reason you believe by taking this stone down...it's your fault.


    Btw...my grandad's day came for him because his eyesight decreased so much he couldn't see even large bold print bibles. He still got up and preached sermons in church with knowledge of scripture in his heart and mind.
     
  15. onestand

    onestand New Member

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    Lady, Do not attempt to compare me with people like that because I feel this way. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean that I am an athiest or any other you mentioned. I really do not appreciate it.
     
  16. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Onestand, I'm not trying to COMPARE you with those groups. But the fact is that those groups are happy about that stone being taken down. Those groups are anti-God. Should this challenge you to reassess your position? In spiritual battles, there really is no middle ground, is there?

    There are two old sayings that come to mind with eternal truths:

    We become like the company we keep.

    Birds of a feather flock together.

    Not judging you, just trying to challenge you with something to think about. ;)
     
  17. Jailminister

    Jailminister New Member

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    onestand, you maybe to young to understand why those monuments were placed there. Just study why they are there. That is why the socialist, leftist groups like the ACLU, People for the AMerican Way, SPLC, ETC. want them to come down. They hate God and they want it removed from our minds and our hearts. If we don't stand now then we will not stand later. I know you have taken your view point and you may feel like you can not retreat from it, but you need to just think about it alittle more and read the history about them. It is not just stone. They represent a standard that was once this nations standard becuase we agree with God on the standards. These bunch of God haters want them gone.
     
  18. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    Why were all those 10 commandments monuments put up in the first place?
    I mean most of Europe was just as religious as the US throughout the 19th and first half of the 20th century, but as far as I know no group felt the urge to build 10 commandments monuments.
     
  19. onestand

    onestand New Member

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    Lady,

    The company I keep do not influence my beliefs nor do they influence my stand on this particular issue. I believe way too much emphesis is placed on a granite stone rather than what it actually means, I truly believe that's what it boils down to.

    Jail,

    I believe we have already covered the age issue and the fact that it has no bearing on this topic. I know the tablet was placed there to "signify standards and foundation". Once again, we don't need an object to continue with those standards and it's unfortunate that so many believers feel it's needed.

    I wonder if the same believers who have spent so many hours praying over the stone to remain also pray as hard for their community to know Jesus and they serve them....not saying they don't, I just wonder.
     
  20. Jailminister

    Jailminister New Member

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    A display of Moses the Lawgiver holding the Ten Commandments is located directly above the Justices' bench in the Chamber of the United States Supreme Court in Washington, D.C. The same display is featured on the bronze doors leading into the Chamber. And Moses is one of 23 marble relief portraits of lawgivers displayed over the gallery doors of the House of Representatives. These representations in our nation's capital underscore the importance America's Founders attached to the Ten Commandments.

    For Americans, the Ten Commandments are as much civic and historic treasures as they are religious. It was from these moral laws that America derived its first principles of common law. President John Quincy Adams wrote in a letter dated 1850, "The law given from Sinai was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code; it contained many statutes . . . of universal application-laws essential to the existence of men in society, and most of which have been enacted by every nation which ever professed any code of laws."

    Why, then, are American school children and ordinary citizens not permitted to enjoy the same right as United States lawmakers and Justices to display this moral law in their own civic surroundings? Mere talk about displaying the Ten Commandments in public schools or on public property in small towns across America has been likened by opponents of the Decalogue to an act of tyranny.

    "Tyranny" refers to an arbitrarily cruel exercise of power. But there is nothing arbitrary about displaying a code of moral conduct that promotes respect for our system of laws and the good of society. There is nothing cruel about reminding people not to kill, steal, and lie. Rather, the arbitrary cruelty lies in allowing people to become the victims of murder, theft and deception.

    George Washington said in his Farewell Address of 1796 that "religion and morality are indispensable supports to political prosperity" and that "reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle." Washington and Adams would both have thought it appropriate to regularly remind Americans how a virtuous and civil community ought to behave.

    While the two quotations used above have been historically authenticated, another quotation by James Madison that has been used by legislators to justify displays of the 10 Commandments is not verifiable. Nevertheless, Madison, recognized by many as the Father of the Constitution, believed wholeheartedly that the future of American civilization had been staked not upon civil government, but upon the capacity of Americans to govern themselves responsibly under moral principles such as the Ten Commandments. When citizens do not govern their own actions, a multiplicity of laws must govern them from the outside in every detail. Such outwardly imposed regulation of every aspect of life, which is all too frequent in America today, inevitably leads to dictatorship and to real 'tyranny."

    More than two hundred years after American freedom was promulgated on the basis of moral codes such as the Ten Commandments, we have every reason to be concerned about the future of American civilization. As John Adams, both Founder and President, noted: "If 'Thou shalt not covet;' and 'Thou shalt not steal,' were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free." [Works, 1851, Vol. VI, p.9]

    We can almost run through the alphabet listing the ills of our society: abortion, battery, cheating, divorce, envy, fighting, gambling, homosexuality, intolerance, juvenile delinquency, kidnapping, lying, murder, nastiness, outrage, pornography, quarreling, rape, stealing, treason, usury, violence, and witchcraft. But our call as Christians is not to be overcome by evil, but to overcome evil with good. (Rom 12:21).

    Many Christians are choosing to overcome evil with good by calling our country back to its heritage, back to the Creator, back to ruling our own actions by following the Ten Commandments. Two Congressmen from Alabama have led the way. Representative Aderholt has said, "The Ten Commandments are the basis for probably most of the laws in this country. I believe that we as a culture need to have comfort in the fact that there are some moral absolutes." Representative Riley reminds us that "our Constitution and the Bill of Rights are built on the foundations of ethics and morality found in the Ten Commandments." Advocates for displaying the Ten Commandments on Ohio school grounds say that they "are an expression of a universal moral code relevant to all of humankind regardless of race, creed, culture, or religious orientation."

    The terrible shootings at Columbine and other schools have jolted Christians into action. This event has demonstrated the need for moral guidance. As Rev. Robert Schenck, founder of the National Clergy Council, and creator of the Ten Commandments Project, has said: "The problems we face in America are moral problems, which cannot be solved legislatively or judicially. We need a moral code to address them. There is no better educational and moral code than the Ten Commandments."

    A powerful grassroots movement is emerging throughout the country to restore the Ten Commandments to civic life in America. There is a nationwide movement to post the Ten Commandments in public places: in Congress, in state and local government buildings, and in schools. According to a 1999 poll, seventy-four percent of Americans believe that posting the Ten Commandments in schools is a good idea.

    No one pretends that displaying the Ten Commandments will answer all of society's problems. But it is seen as a step toward reawakening that government of self upon which the Founders said American freedom was dependent. As Pastor Gary Dull of Altoona, Pennsylvania, has said: "Placing of the Ten Commandments before the young people would be a positive step that in time would develop solid moral character in the lives of those who determined to live according to what the decalog teaches."

    Regardless of judicial or political outcomes, many committed Americans have already taken the bold step of displaying the Ten Commandments:

    Judge Moore, an Alabama state court judge since November 1992, has displayed a hand-carved plaque of the Ten Commandments behind the bench in his courtroom for most of the time he has been a Judge. Also on display in his courtroom are artistic renderings of the Declaration of Independence and the Mayflower Compact and large pictures of George Washington and Abraham Lincoln.

    In October 1999, 41 members of Congress agreed to post the Ten Commandments publicly in their Capitol Hill offices.

    In January 2000, because of the actions of Pastor Dull and others, the Altoona Area School District, Pennsylvania approved a display of the Ten Commandments in their 13 school libraries as part of a character building project. In 1999, the school board agreed to provide a location for historic and religious documents that meet specified requirements.

    However, opposition to all such displays has been fierce. Judge Moore defended his right to display the plaque for several years in multiple court hearings before opponents finally gave up. Members of Congress agreeing to the display in their offices have been severely criticized. And the Altoona Area School Board is currently reviewing its policy after requests for display of documents came from Atheists, Free Thinkers, and the Wiccans. According to Pastor Dull, the Board is working to strengthen its guidelines "to prevent anybody displaying anything."

    The battleground revolves around city councils, schools, courtrooms and State Legislatures. Many battles may yet need to be fought before the display of the Ten Commandments is secure.

    Sadly, a 4-foot-tall engraved marble tablet bearing the Ten Commandments is gone from its place outside City Hall in Manhattan, Kansas. Forty-two years after the city agreed to display this gift received from the Eagles, the City Commission voted to remove the tablet rather than deal with the federal lawsuit that had been filed in protest of the display. Fear of litigation also influences the policy decisions of many school districts. Some public schools have approved a display of the Ten Commandments only to reverse themselves after being threatened with a lawsuit. Such was the case in California when the Val Verde Board of Education voted to support posting the Ten Commandments in district schools after thousands of people showed up at a rally. However, one month later when faced with the expense of litigation, the Board of Education overturned its decision.

    Other school districts have been bolder and have allowed the display of the Ten Commandments to remain even after the filing of a lawsuit seeking its removal. For example, the Adams County/Ohio Valley School Board continues to display four stone monuments engraved with the Ten Commandments on the lawns of the county's four high school/middle schools. When a lawsuit was filed in early February of 1999, a community group began building a legal defense fund to assist the county in its defense of the display.

    Many Christians have turned to State Legislatures for authority to display the Ten Commandments. This action has been necessary when a Judge orders removal of a display or a lawsuit is threatened or filed. For example, interest for Ten Commandments legislation in Illinois developed out of a 1999 case in Harrisburg, Illinois where school officials took down a copy of the Ten Commandments after a powerful anti-Christian organization threatened to sue.

    Congress led the way in this legislative endeavor in March 1997, when the House approved a resolution supporting the public display of the Ten Commandments in government offices and courthouses. On April 2, 1998, the Senate approved a concurrent resolution. On June 17, 1999, the House of Representatives endorsed the power of the States to display the Ten Commandments. A House/Senate Conference Committee is currently debating the Ten Commandments Defense Act.

    Fourteen States have considered Ten Commandments legislation at the state level. Indiana and South Dakota have seen their bills enacted into law. Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, Illinois, Kentucky, and Oklahoma have seen their bills founder. And bills are still pending in Georgia, Iowa, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, and New York. Ten Commandments legislation is expected in North Carolina and may also be introduced in Minnesota and Pennsylvania.

    However, even after Legislatures approve posting of the Ten Commandments, these statutes may be challenged in the courtroom. The Christian Law Association has already been asked to assist attorneys preparing to defend the Indiana law enacted on March 24, 2000. And the 1980 U.S. Supreme Court case of Stone v. Graham invalidated a Kentucky statute that required the posting of a copy of the Ten Commandments on public classroom walls.

    The Christian Law Association supports the display of the Ten Commandments in public places. CLA stands ready to work with Christians and churches seeking approval for such displays in Congress, in state and local government buildings, and in schools. CLA attorneys can provide churches and civic groups with guidelines for preparing a lawful display of the Ten Commandments under the guidelines issued by the Court in Stone v. Graham.

    Let us pray that the light of the Ten Commandments will once again be permitted to shine across this land as it did at the time of America's founding. Our freedoms may depend on it.

    © 1999-2001 Christian Law Association. All rights reserved.
     
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