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Featured Another [debate between Dr. Flowers and Dr. White]

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Iconoclast, Nov 1, 2019.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    In case you missed it, here was another [debate by Dr. Flowers refuting] the "golden chain of redemption". It made no sense [to the author of the OP and was a failure in the opinion of the author of the OP].

    Alpha and Omega Ministries
     
    #1 Iconoclast, Nov 1, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 1, 2019
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  2. MartyF

    MartyF Active Member

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    Unfortunately, James White is not the best persuader - not that Leighton Flowers is.

    The inability of James White is seen through how many KJVO nuts there are in the Calvinist faction.

    I'll go through it in more detail later if I have time.
     
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  3. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I don't understand Reformed KJVO.
     
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Dr.White is about uncovering the text as it is, not in some shady kind of persuasion of smooth speaking false teachers.
     
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  5. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Yet another attempt by Iconoclast to drag Dr. Leighton Flowers into Baptist Board and denigrate him.
     
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  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Dr. White makes short work of him. He is a nice guy, badly misguided however. You or Rm can try and defend his position if you like.

    [Post edited]
     
    #6 Iconoclast, Nov 1, 2019
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  7. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    I suggest you seek out Dr. Flowers and debate him. This is no place for a proxy discussion.
     
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  8. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    You couldn't debate your way out of a wet paper sack with a hole already in it. The best you got is it to point to someone else' argument or quote some treatise by someone else. Apparently Dr. Flowers lives in your head rent free. Maybe you should take up a hobby like building model cars or start a lawn mowing business. Anything else. Of all the people I have debated with you are the absolute weakest. When you cannot get anywhere with your attempts at using everyone else to create your arguments you just attack the person. Well good luck with your delusion.
     
    #8 Revmitchell, Nov 1, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2019
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    [Edited] his podcast is fair game. Did you listen to the link?
     
    #9 Iconoclast, Nov 1, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 1, 2019
  10. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    All:

    Please do not drag people who are not participants on the BB into the BB. This is cowardice as they are not here to answer for potential slanderous statements.

    The debate in the OP between Dr. Flowers and Dr. White is fair game for discussion. Published opinions are fair game for discussion. People are not fair game.
     
  11. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I have nothing against Leighton Flowers personally and do not wish to spend my time talking about him. When he, or any other teacher, becomes relevant is when their teaching is promoted in the public square. Even then, any critiques are not about the person but about their teachings and conclusions. As JonC said in post #10, the debate between Leighton Flowers and James White is fair game for discussion. Actually, what the OP was referencing was not a debate between Flowers and White. Leighton Flowers posted a 10-minute video on YouTube about his take on a portion of Romans 8. James White countered Leighton Flowers's interpretation on the October 31, 2019, episode of Radio Free Geneva. The subject matter was nothing new. Leighton Flower's video contained the same things he has stated on other occasions. James White's refutation was direct and dealt directly with Leighton Flower's statements. The discussion on Radio Free Geneva is helpful if you are studying the issue of election. Obviously, we bring our presuppositional baggage with us when confronting this issue.
     
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  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    "Revmitchell,
    That might be true. You are welcome to try. I am right here to handle anything out in the open. You did try once I recall. You could not answer, then called me a few names, and quit the discussion when you could not answer the biblical verses in Hebrews 7-10.

    .

    I play chess, thanks for your kind words.

    .

    I might be, nevertheless I silenced you a few years ago, and you have not tried again.
    Anytime big man, anytime...I am here in public like I was in new mexico for 3 hours waiting when you did not show.
     
  13. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    To me, that's OK, David...
    I don't really understand the use of the terms "Reformed" or "KJVO", either...but I'm familiar with their usage to describe certain people who hold certain beliefs about the Bible. ;)

    That said,
    I don't understand how someone can look at God's word, find the discrepancies that exist between the many English translations of the Bible over the past 500 years ( especially the ones completed within the last 150 years or so ), and simply pass the accuracy problems off as being unimportant.
    Not that I think that you don't see accuracy as important...

    But many I've seen, both here and on other forums ( and outside of them ) don't see any problem with the differences.
    Their comments are often phrased like this:

    "But no major doctrines are affected by the differences."
    "Men translated God's word, not God."
    "How do you know which manuscripts are the right ones?"

    I hear those things all the time, and from my perspective, it's as if they are saying that doctrines aren't built upon every precious word, and that God has determined to leave His words in the hands of men who can do as they wish....that His children are subject to the whims of scholars who, in most cases, don't even believe His words, much less understand them.

    To me, every word of God is important, because God's word itself states that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God ( Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4 ).
    So, I want to be sure that I get them all, and I want to have the most accurate translation of God's word in my own language that I can get...regardless of how much I need to labor to familiarize myself with out-of-date language in order to do it.


    That is why I hold the position that I do...because even though I know that the AV was translated by men and that it has a few areas that it could have been done perhaps a little better ( and I do happen to believe that the translators took liberties with inserting italicized words in where I don't believe they should have been ), I also know that God, in His sovereignty and power, has preserved His word for His precious children to study and take comfort in ( Romans 15:4 ).

    Whether or not the majority of people here agree with me about my position ( that the AV is the singular best translation in the English that we have available today ), is ultimately unimportant to me.
    I know, in my heart, that it is what God would have me to use.

    I also know, in my heart, that until an actual attempt is made by God-fearing men to translate a Bible into the English...and have it be even more accurate to the manuscripts that I believe are His preserved words, then I will stick with what I am convinced is the best so far...

    Even if it is hundreds of years "out-of-date".:)
     
    #13 Dave Gilbert, Nov 2, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2019
  14. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    @Iconoclast :

    My apologies for not responding directly to the op, but having seen how it has degenerated ( and the fact that I don't think there is any profit in this line of discussion ), I think it best to remind everyone here that we should focus on the doctrines in question and what the Scripture says, and not what two men who differ in their beliefs are stating or debating.

    After all, brothers ( and sisters who may be reading this ), emulations ( seeking to be superior to one another ) and strife ( in-fighting ) are works of the flesh ( Galatians 5:19-21 ), not the fruit of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:22-23 ).
    Let us endeavor to walk in the Spirit, so that we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh ( Galatians 5:13-17 ).

    As believers in Jesus Christ, we are not "of Paul", "of Cephas" and not "of Apollos"...
    We are "of Jesus Christ", and the men out there in the public eye are either God's ministers, or they are not.
    I encourage all of us to look what they say, compare it to God's word, and satisfy ourselves that they are either being used of Him, or not.


    May God, in His grace, remind each and everyone of us of what He has done for us, and that it humble us before His face.:)
     
    #14 Dave Gilbert, Nov 2, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2019
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  15. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Good points, @Dave Gilbert .

    The debate between Calvinism and Free-will theology has not been settled for centuries. Oddly enough, I do not expect that it will be settled on the BaptistBoard.

    We can (and should) discuss doctrine. But we need to do so in a Christ-like manner.

    No one needs to be trying to shut down other people over their understanding of the issue. No one needs to be trying to silence another person because they are a Calvinist or hold to free-will doctrine.

    What will be shut down/ silenced are agendas against other Christian positions and against other people. This is NOT a Calvinistic board. This is NOT an anti-Calvinist board. This is NOT an echo chamber for either position.

    This is a Christian board which is unapologetically baptist.
     
  16. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    This sounds a lot like censorship.... How can you say it is not an echo-chamber when there is a forum here specifically for this very topic?
     
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  17. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Content deemed inappropriate by the staff/ administration will be censored. Debate OF DOCTRINE is encouraged. The insult/ slander of persons is not.

    This is a Christian forum and the staff here will do their best (as imperfect people) to inforce the guidelines all agreed upon by members when they joined this forum and to maintain a standard on conduct and content.

    A rule of thumb is that if a member does not want people to argue against a thread then they should not post the thread - if they do not want opposing views expressed on this forum they should not be on this forum. There are sites that are designed around a more narrow theology which may better suit their lack of tolerance for other believers.

    This is not a matter for discussion.
     
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  18. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Of course there has to be "censorship." Technically not allowing profanity is censorship. The moderators decide where the line is and have a duty to censor everything past it.
     
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  19. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    I agree with that, but I'm just seeking clarification because it sounded like if the moderator didn't like the theological argument they will just remove it at will. I am not saying that this is what @JonC is saying, just saying how it sounded and seeking clarification of meaning.

    It would be nice to know moderation standards so it is a little more clear-cut. Especially since we have open heresy going on in other parts of this board where Catholic false teachings are being defended.
     
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  20. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    To clarify -

    I do not care where anyone stands on the Calvinism issue.

    Argue YOUR position while respecting other people and debating against their position.

    It is that simple.
     
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