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Another problem for evolution

Discussion in 'Science' started by UTEOTW, Mar 12, 2005.

  1. UTEOTW

    UTEOTW New Member

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    So you cannot answer the questions.

    So you are sure that your interpretation of scripture is correct even though you cannot provide a coherent interpretation of our observations of the creation that fits you interpretation.

    Are you sure? Because your inability to account for the observations shows your view to be wanting.
     
  2. North Carolina Tentmaker

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    That is quite a bit of reasoning
    Proposition 1 - I would just say that the Bible must be true. When you add the words, "if properly interpreted" to this the proposition becomes false. I am sure you are familiar with II Pet 1:20 which says, "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." Now I guess some would argue that this verse applies only to the prophetic portions of scripture and not the historical portions like the creation and flood accounts but I would disagree. The Bible means what it says, that's a pretty simple idea.

    Proposition 2 - All of the evidence of God's own creation shows that He used long periods of time to create. Again this is a false proposition. Some of the evidence when interpreted certain ways appears to show that God used long periods of time to create. I have yet to see any arguments made on this forum for an old earth that were convincing. Most go into scientific trivialities. I really don't care how many bones form in a whale fetus or what direction a lizards pelvis points. The same goes for successive layers of glacially rafted ice and angular unconformities in the Grand Canyon, who cares. One person may look at those and think they give evidence for an old earth. Other qualified scientists will disagree. The creationist who believes the Bible does not have to explain any of it (the so called scientific evidence). It is on the evolutionist who tries to use science as a standard to judge scripture that the burden of proof lies. And of course his science cannot prove anything.

    So here we have used two false propositions to make a personal condemnation that if you disagree you must be wrong. That is not logical reasoning or a scientific method.
     
  3. UTEOTW

    UTEOTW New Member

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    It is a simple idea, but I think too simple to capture the true essence.

    Look at the verse you quoted for us. Even as you are making an argument that no interpretation should be done on the Scriptures you admit that there may be disagrement among believers on whether this verse applies to just prophecy or to the general scriptures. That in itself is a matter of interpretation. Though the verse speaks specifically of prophecy, you add an additional layer of interpretation when you attempt to generalize the verse.

    It would be simple to go through various things on which believers disagree about the meaning. What to do with these things? Are these not matters of interpretation? Does this not demonstrate that in many areas it is a matter of finding the correct interpretation?

    I think there is enough variety in how various scriptures are interpreted to support my assertion that the scriptures must be accurately interpreted. In my opinion, it is a weak case to say that no interpretation is possible or allowed of any scripture. Otherwise we would almost all agree on almost everything.

    You have not demonstrated it to be false, only asserted such.

    Here is the problem. You may not care about the trivialties, but they are important. The larger problem is that you have to be able to put it all together. Details of whale development and genetic testing and fossils may not individually be very convincing to you. But you really have no choice but to dole these things out it small bites.

    But when you add it all up, it becomes a very convincing picture. If you have the time to read a number of books on the subject, then you can start from the basics to get the general information and then get into the specifics of the wide ranging data. We do not have the luxury in these types of discussions. So we are forced to focus on a few examples.

    And what it boils down to is a question of what best explains what we see. While angular unconformities in the Grand Canyon may not be very convincing to you, the OE explanations of how they came to be are simple and straightforward. I have yet to see a YE explanation for these and I expect that any to be proffered would be torturous and inconsistent with the observations. The point of the glacially rafted ice and banded iron formations of the Snowball Earth is not that they by themselves show an old earth but that the observations are easily accountable by an old earth and there is no reason to expect such in a young earth nor a way to explain their presence in a young earth.

    With evolution specifically there is a wide variety of data including the twin nested heirarchy, anatomical homology, ontogeny, past biogeography, atavisms and pseudogenes. Any one of the facts from any one of these areas is not very convincing by itself due to the fragmentary nature. However when put together they point to only one conclusion. Only common descent is consistent with all of the observations in biology and paleontology. There is no consistent young earth theory that accounts at all for all the observations much less in such a coherent way as common descent.

    And that is the thrust of the argument. Nothing in science is proven. It is always a case of which theory provides the most compelling explanation. And when taking the whole of the observations, the old earth theories explain our observations in a very consistent and coherent manner with widely disparate fields providing complementary results. Young earth offers no such set of theories. It fails to explain even basic observations. When forced to choose between the two, YE offers nothing at this point and must be discarded.
     
  4. Paul of Eugene

    Paul of Eugene New Member

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    There are two ways of deciding what to accept as real. One is to evaluate the evidence. The other is to accept one's traditions. Maybe there are others as well but lets discuss these two.

    Evaluating the evidence runs the risk missing what the evidence is telling you and getting it wrong; but if you pay attention to others with the same technique, each can correct the other; if you keep records, it is possible to build on the results of the past.

    Accepting only one's traditions leaves one with traditional answers but leaves one unable to improve on the tradition, where the tradition is wrong.

    Especially problematic are those whose traditions include the idea that their traditions are infallible. These are utterly unable to evaluate evidence - in fact, the idea of looking to evidence for truth is alien to them.

    Their fate is to become obsolete.
     
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