Another question for Calvinists

Let me ask all of you this even you Winman! You believe God is in complete control right? So did he know from the beginning of time that man was going to sin? He made a devil and a tree of knowledge of good and evil.
God knows what good and evil is and he made a tree of good and evil! Think about it. He set that out in the garden and told all of us not to eat it. We all did. Are you saying God a all wise and living God could not determine if he set a tree of good and evil in the garden with us that we would not eat there of? Not only that but a devil also.
I guess the way I see some of you looking at it is that he was hoping we would not eat of it. But we all did! He also set a tree of life in the mist of it and hoped also that each of us would need a savior! We can't say he determined all of this or knew it.
Blindly a all wise and living God laid this all out hoping and not knowing what his his creation would do! Let me ask all of you that have children! We know when they get to that age that they will sin against God right! How do we know that? Because the word of God tells us that we have all sinned and come short of his glory. We can't stop them from sinning. We know they will! God knows they will!
But did any of you that have a baby or make a baby make them to sin? Or raise them to sin? No! We knew. Just like God knows. Why? Because we all eat from that tree of knowledge of good and evil. Would it grieve you as a dad or mother if you see your child sin against God?
If something that came from you that you gave birth to or became a father of and it became evil killing and destroying and always evil in it heart. Would you not want to repent because you made such a creator?
Don't say you did not know that he or she would not sin. Because you did! But the point is you never made them to turn out that way and God did not make us to turn out that way. God knows all things and is a wise and just God and not a man in this room or women in this room will ever change my mind on that .God bless.

 

Good analogy. However, I will assume you don't want your children to do things that are wrong and grieve you.

The Calvinist's view is that not only did God know we would sin, but that He wants us to sin so he can get glory. I find this impossible to accept.

Back to your analogy. To apply the Calvinist belief to what you have said, you would have to deliberately put your children in a bad position, such as giving them alcohol and tobacco or even drugs at a young age so you can later deliver them from this evil so you will be admired for saving them from their addictions. To me this is sick!

 

If one recognizes God's foreknowledge, it is apparent that God clearly desired (on some level) to allow sin in the world (permissive will).

This is a problem for all theological systems, not just Calvinism.

 

It's only a problem in a linear fashion.

 

Ditto, an antimony for both Cals and Non-Cals.

 

My question is, God being omniscient, knowing precisely what man would do, why does that mean that He "desired" it?

If you know (without any reasonable doubt) that your children are going to partake in certain things like underage drinking etc., just because you are "certain" of it, and you know the temptation is there, does that mean you desire it?

 

The only way you can say this is if you make "evil" to be something of substance, and also if you plant heretical statements into the mouth (and Word) of God.

Is "evil" something?

Is God evil? I'm a committed Reformed theologian and I don't think so...

 

It's not a problem when you understand that with out willingness there is no demonstration of love for Christ Jesus.

2Co 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

And there is no will involved when there is no choice. The tree of knowledge was that choice for Adam to either eat the fruit and sin or not eat and be good. The same is still true, we either abstain from sin or we do good. It's a choice. Rebellion is always a choice. It isn't something we have to do it's something we do because we choose to. Being saved only happens when we give up the rebellion.
MB

 

No, because then you have God tempting man and the Bible is clear that God doesn't temp man. I don't believe any Calvinist here believes that God temps man. Now, did God desire for man to sin against him? yes and no.

The no part
God has said that he want's man to obey. There is nothing in the Bible that says that God wants man to disobey. So I would say no, God doesn't desire man to sin against him.

The yes part
God has allowed sin to enter into the world. Unless one thinks that God is unable to control sin, then to some extent God desired to allow it to happen.

Did God allow sin so he could show mercy? Sure. This doesn't mean that God tempted man to sin. Each man(or woman) sins on their own will. They do it because they want to. God doesn't force anyone to sin.

To be totally honest, I don't understand it all. Again with the problem of evil. God is good, God is great, evil exists. I don't think we will ever understand the answer here on earth.

 

Could you explain a bit further? I'm not sure I follow you.

 

The difference is that God had the sovereign power to prevent the circumstances. God could clearly have created a scenario in which sin was not possible. Humans do not have that kind of power over their children.

 

I understand that sin is volitional, but I'm not sure how this fact solves the issue at hand.

 

Why would you conclude that God would not will something that would grieve him??

Do you not think that Calvary grieved the heart of God?

Did God not will Calvary?

I am fixing to go to the gym. The idea grieves me but it is my will to do it nonetheless.

Why do we and why would God will something that grieves?

For the greater good.

The greatest good in the universe is the glory of God.

By enduring grief God accomplishes the greatest good in the universe- he glorifies himself.

 

Agreed, sort of. But why not create without the potentiality of sin, the "reformed" proponent argues it is for God's glory, the non-reformed argues it is for creation to have some degree of free will (not libertarian). Is this an accurate reflection of the divide?

 

"fixing to" ??? I thought that was only spoken in Alabama.

Luke, when we say God was "grieved", are we being anthropomorphic. Is God capable of being grieved as we "shallowly" know grief? Just a question, not being snarky.

 

All this is is winman trying to prove that God was surprised by the outcome, as he says God doesn't know things until they happen, which we all know is erroneous.

I see Holy God showing Holy displeasure for man and his wicked ways. A warning to all of us.

 

No, we say it here in Mississippi as well. :wavey:

I don't know.

God is capable of being pleased and angered in a real, not anthropomorphic, way.

I can see no reason to assume that he can only be grieved in a semantic sense.

Sin grieves him- but he willed that sin exist because he is willing to be grieved for the greater good.

Christ was certainly grieved in Gethsemane but he was willing to endure the grief for the greater good- that being to do the will of Him who sent him and to lavish unworthy creatures like you and me in infinite divine love.

This love, BTW, could NOT be displayed without sin.

God is and always has been sovereign over all that happens- nothing happens apart from the decree of God.

No good, no evil that God did not intend.

But he cannot be charged with evil because his motive was pure for bringing it to pass.

Motive is everything.

I can kill a man in his home surrounded by his family and I am a murderer.

I can kill the same man just as violently on the battlefield fighting for my country and I am a hero.

MOTIVE makes the difference between the deed being murder and chivalry.

God's MOTIVE for bringing evil to pass was grand and glorious. His motive was to glorify Jesus and be infinitely gracious to you and I.