Answer to your questions....

[michelle]

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

I have noticed this from many on these posts, that they do not read all of what is said and take all of it into consideration, but focus only on one aspect, and do not care not one iota about understanding anything, but only to win the debate. This is very sad indeed. I am sorry for you, that you must refuse to see the truth, when it is staring you right in the face, just to win the debate.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by michelle:
Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

Thank you for helping me get

Double Standards Index

off high center. I couldn't done it without
you. Again, thank you.

Remember, God loves you.

 

[Pastor Larry]

you must refuse to see the truth, when it is staring you right in the face

I have read a number of your posts and have seen a great many untruths in them. We have pointed out those errors many times and you refuse to see it, even though it is staring you right in the face.

 

[Alcott]

Originally posted by michelle:
Yes I do, by the fact it is in the KJV. Secondly by the Holy Spirit of truth.

Your heirarchy of truth: #1 KJV, #2 Holy Spirit of Truth.
What a backward notion I must have had for so long, that the 'second fiddle' Holy Spirit actually came first, as well as that the original biblical writings came long before the KJV!

 

[michelle]

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

One must first hear and/or read the word of God for the Holy Spirit to convict. You are christian and do not understand this important truth?


Pastor Larry,

You proved the point I was making in my last post. Thank you very much for the confirmation for all to see - that no one cares one iota for the truth, but only winning the debate. You can think all you want that what I have said is not the truth, and that I am lying, but the Lord our God knows, and I am at peace with him on this issue. I just hope that you are. Truth will stand on it's own, without any help from you or me.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!


--------------------------------------------------
Pastor Larry quoted:

The reason it was left out of modern Greek texts is because the evidence God preserved for us indicates that it should not be there.
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry Larry, but the evidence is that God preserved it in the textus receptus and for the english speaking people for at least 400 years (the evidence for it, is much stronger than that against it)...until the modern versions came along. So are you telling me that you do not believe God's promise to preserve his word for every generation? You believe that God, all of a sudden in this modern day, decided to omitt this from his word of truth? Does God change? Does God put his people now in doubt of what he actually did or did not say?

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by michelle:
Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!


--------------------------------------------------
Pastor Larry quoted:

The reason it was left out of modern Greek texts is because the evidence God preserved for us indicates that it should not be there.
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry Larry, but the evidence is that God preserved it in the textus receptus and for the english speaking people for at least 400 years (the evidence for it, is much stronger than that against it)...until the modern versions came along. So are you telling me that you do not believe God's promise to preserve his word for every generation? You believe that God, all of a sudden in this modern day, decided to omitt this from his word of truth? Does God change? Does God put his people now in doubt of what he actually did or did not say?

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

He preserved the Greek text for almost 2000 years and the Hebrew and Aramaic texts for much longer. English doesn't even closely compare.

The textus receptus is not an English text. So you think the textus receptus has no textual variants?

 

[michelle]

Peace and love to you in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

That all fine and well gb, but we speak and read ENGLISH, not greek, not hebrew, but ENGLISH. God has preserved his word in the ENGLISH language for the ENGLISH SPEAKING PEOPLE for at least 400 years now. Why now, has he decided to omitt from his word? Please answer this question.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by michelle:
You proved the point I was making in my last post. Thank you very much for the confirmation for all to see - that no one cares one iota for the truth, but only winning the debate. You can think all you want that what I have said is not the truth, and that I am lying, but the Lord our God knows, and I am at peace with him on this issue. I just hope that you are. Truth will stand on it's own, without any help from you or me.

I don't "think" that what you have said is not the truth. I know that it is not the truth and my love for the truth and my desire to not see it maligned is what causes me to speak up.

I don't think you are evil or that you intend to attack God's word. I don't think you intend to change the biblical doctrine of Scripture. I think you have been mistaught. We have several exposed things that you have said, and then you reply with "I really didn't know that." You have shown us that you have not studied this issue. YOu have shown us that you are just repeating what you have heard from others. Unfortunately for you, you have been listening to the wrong sources.

I am at perfect peace on this issue and my love for God's word has greatly increased since I started using modern versions. YOu would probably find the same to be true for you. But in the end, it is not about preference or desire. It is about truth. Truth will stand on its own. That is why this KJVO doctrine is at best a nuisance. It is not affecting the truth of Scripture. It is unfortunately affecting the faith of some who are being taught that they really can't have God's word in modern language and who are being taught to doubt God's word. That is the worst thing. I really don't care who believes in KJVO. What I care about is that they are spreading their doctrine and creating doubt in the mind of people about God's word. That needs to stop immediately.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Sorry Larry, but the evidence is that God preserved it in the textus receptus and for the english speaking people for at least 400 years (the evidence for it, is much stronger than that against it)...until the modern versions came along.

Not entirely true. It was not preserved all that time. We do not have the early references to it. Secondly, the variant (its absence) was preserved longer than the inclusion. We know that by the dates of the texts in which the variant is found or not found.

So are you telling me that you do not believe God's promise to preserve his word for every generation?

No, I am not telling you that. In fact, I have already answered that question. God has promised to preserve his word. There are times in history when his word has not been extant.

You believe that God, all of a sudden in this modern day, decided to omitt this from his word of truth?

No, that is not what I believe. God didn't omit it from his word. Look at 1:17 and 2:8 among other passages. It is right there for all to see.

Does God change?

Nope.

Does God put his people now in doubt of what he actually did or did not say?

Nope, there is no doubt except the doubt that you are creatinag by your attacks on God's word. There are very simple explanations for these things that involve the truth of manuscripts transmission and do not create doubt. When you start telling people things that aren't true, you are the one creating doubt.

 

[michelle]

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!


--------------------------------------------------
Pastor Larry quoted:

What I care about is that they are spreading their doctrine and creating doubt in the mind of people about God's word. That needs to stop immediately.
--------------------------------------------------

Then why Larry, do you continue to support and use those very versions that have caused others to doubt what God has really said? Do you think it is not causing doubt for a person to trust their Bible, when they see in numerous footnotes, that a verse of scripture, or a phrase of scripture, or a word in scripture that has been long standing truth in scripture, is now not sure, because they are not found in the majority of MSS in the new Greek? I do not see this in my Bible of the KJV, and if I did, that would sow doubt into my heart, and make me question, well what did God say? Sorry, this is very sad indeed.

You say you care about those who cast doubt to others about God's word, but it is YOU who are supporting those who do this. You have confirmed that you are a hypocrate.

I agree, those who cast doubts about what God has said, needs to stop immediately, and that is why I come here to this Bible Versions board.

Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Pastor Larry]

Then why Larry, do you continue to support and use those very versions that have caused others to doubt what God has really said?

I don't. I never have used a version that casts doubt on what God has really said. The only people that doubt it are people like you who do not understand the biblical doctrine of inspiration and the principles of textual transmission and translations.

Do you think it is not causing doubt for a person to trust their Bible, when they see in numerous footnotes, that a verse of scripture, or a phrase of scripture, or a word in scripture that has been long standing truth in scripture, is now not sure, because they are not found in the majority of MSS in the new Greek?

No, and neither did the KJV translators.

I do not see this in my Bible of the KJV,

That is because you do not use a real KJV1611. You use a later revision of it.

and if I did, that would sow doubt into my heart, and make me question, well what did God say? Sorry, this is very sad indeed.

Then you need to study the doctrine of Scripture and the principles of translations and transmission. There is an easy solution that doesn't require us to deny what Scripture teaches about itself.

I agree, those who cast doubts about what God has said, needs to stop immediately, and that is why I come here to this Bible Versions board.

Hopefully then you will learn something and quit casting doubt.

In 7 years of using an MV, I have had three questions about what God's word actually says. Two were from KJVO perspectives and one was from a lady who wanted to know whether Christ sent out 70 or 72 disciples. They were easy questions to answer.

Your confusion stems from your faulty premise. If you deal with the premise biblically, the confusion goes away. There is not this great mass of confusion out there. You are told there is by people who are KJVO. Go to a church that uses something else and just listen and participate for a while. You will very quickly see that this confusion doesn't exist.

 

[michelle]

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

Oh Pastor Larry, but it (confusion) most assuredly does, for you just admitted it in your post. I have encountered quite a few instances where people have understood scriptures wrong because of the translation they use. It comes to be quite evident with those who read, learn and memorize the KJV to those who use the mv's. As Will also pointed out, it also causes confusion with unbelievers, and affects the witnessing of those unbelievers. Sorry, you are clearly the one in denial about this and blind to what is really going on.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Your confusion stems from your faulty premise. If you deal with the premise biblically, the confusion goes away. There is not this great mass of confusion out there. You are told there is by people who are KJVO. Go to a church that uses something else and just listen and participate for a while. You will very quickly see that this confusion doesn't exist.

Amen, Brother Pastor Larry -- Preach it!

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by michelle:
I have encountered quite a few instances where people have understood scriptures wrong because of the translation they use.

I have encountered quite quite a few instances where people who were KJVO understood the scriptures wrong because they thought they understood the KJV when in reality they didn't.

As Will also pointed out, it also causes confusion with unbelievers, and affects the witnessing of those unbelievers.

That is absolutely, positively ridiculous. I know KJVO people who were won to Christ with an NIV. If a witness knows the gospel and the MVhe is using, there is nothing to confuse an unbeliever that wouldn't be there if he were using a KJV.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by michelle:
I have encountered quite a few instances where people have understood scriptures wrong because of the translation they use.

I have encountered quite quite a few instances where people who were KJVO understood the scriptures wrong because they thought they understood the KJV when in reality they didn't.
</font>[/QUOTE]Amen, Brother Scott J. -- Preach it!

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by michelle:
Oh Pastor Larry, but it (confusion) most assuredly does, for you just admitted it in your post. I have encountered quite a few instances where people have understood scriptures wrong because of the translation they use. It comes to be quite evident with those who read, learn and memorize the KJV to those who use the mv's.

How many times have you read through the Bible in a translation other than the KJV? How many times have you been in a solid preaching church that uses something other than the KJV? My suspicion is that you have never been consistently exposed to a modern version and therefore you have no clue what you are talking about. I can testify to both questions and say without any shadow of a doubt and without any fear of contradiction that the only confusion comes from people like yourself who have been falsely taught.

As Will also pointed out, it also causes confusion with unbelievers, and affects the witnessing of those unbelievers.

Why are unbelievers witnessing??? I have never seen an unbeliever confused with a mdoern version. Will is probably like you ... he has never done a lot of reading or working with modern versions. That gives a very biased perspective. Having witnessed to unbelievers and having led them to the Lord, I can testify without a doubt that, humanly speaking, it is far easier from a modern version than from a KJV. That is simply the fact.

Sorry, you are clearly the one in denial about this and blind to what is really going on.

Then why don't you show me where? So far every charge you and your side has made has been shown to be false. You have failed in every single attempt. If I am in denial, then you should have no problem using the actual facts to show me where.

 

[ScottEmerson]

I agree with Larry - witnessing is far easier using a modern version than a KJV - as someone who has witnessed using both.

 

[Alcott]

Originally posted by michelle:
One must first hear and/or read the word of God for the Holy Spirit to convict.

Of course. Paul, Peter, John, and the rest of them had to read the KJV before they could be inspired to write what centuries later was the source to write the KJV.

 

[robycop3]

Michelle, WHICH REVISION of the Textus Receptus is "the one"? Erasmus himself revised it repeatedly! I thought it was 3 times, but Skanwmatos correctly reminded me it was FIVE times! That's before Stephanus or Beza made THEIR multiple revisions.

WHICH ONE IS RIGHT?????????