Anti-intellectualism

Actually, it does:

Act 17:22 (Geneva Bible, 1587 Edition):
Then Paul stoode in the mids of Mars streete,
and sayde, Yee men of Athens,
I perceiue that in all things yee are too superstitious.

Act 17:22 (KJV1611 Edition):
Then Paul stood in the mids of Mars-hill,
and said, Yee men of Athens,
I perceiue that in all things yee are too superstitious.

Acts 17:22 (KJV1769 Edition):
Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill,
and said, Ye men of Athens,
I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

'too superstitious' is speaking of philosophy

(Recall 'men of Athens' are Greeks.)

Act 17:23 For as I passed by,
and beheld your deuotions,
I found an Altar with this inscription,
TO THE VNKNOWEN GOD.
Whom therefore yee ignorantly worship,
him declare I vnto you.

What better 'devotions' than poetry?

 

Jesus spoke to people often in parables. Parables were mostly centered around agricultural things they understood so he could communicate a spiritual message. Often we need to do the same thbings with people who do not have much of a spritual understanding. Telling a person about rhe blood of Christ does little to communicate to them.

Almost every I have brought to church asked me about what happened at the end. Often they would ask something like "What was that happening at the end?"
Scripture clearly communicates the need to receive Christ in ways which are understood. Yet so many "invitations" are really not invitations clearly thought out but rather a duty performed. I have always tried to not tag on an invitation but rather make it the decison point of the sermon. In giving a persuasive speech or a sermon shouldn't the point be so focused that the person must make a decision.

I have seen a lot of presentations that were an absolute waste of time. The person just presented and the other person just listened not understanding anything. There must be clear communication of the gospel so that the person knows what they must do to received Christ. They must have enough information as a supporting foundation on which to make a sound decision. Too many preachers tell people to receive Christ to go to heaven but do not tell them the cost involved in following Christ. When people know about the cost the early Christians paid to follow Christ then they will struggle with their decision to follow Christ. When they make that final decision it is a solid decision. For a long time my brother in law told me he knew what he needed to do but had some internal battles. When he made that final decision out came a bold man knowing he was ready to wlak with God and he did in a bold way.

In one of the books I reaqd by Spurgeon he mentioned that a lot of the success a person has in their Christian life has to do with what they are told before they receive Christ.

 

For poetry, I would look at this verse:

...that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' (Acts 17:27-28 NASB )​

The quote Paul uses is historically attributed to one of a couple Greek poets, one of which was also known as a philosopher. And, as Ed points out, Paul also quotes from a pagan statue. (Acts 17:23) Perhaps one could say he quoted from Greek religion instead of philosophy.

This was not something I went looking for, but rather was surprised to find. Why do you say this is an example of putting one's own thoughts into the interpretation?

 

Primary source material

Listen to Dr. Bob Jones, Sr. discussing his views on education at the following link. This, I think, is consistent with other Fundamentalists of the era.

http://www.sermonaudio.com/play.asp?ID=WMUU0000000665&sourceID=WOT​

 

Your example of philosphy is rather weak and clearly a loose association. Nothing you presented is poetry.

 

Jesus did not use parables to communicate a mesasage so the people would understand. [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] Matt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. Jesus tells us clearly why He spoke in parables. Nothing here resolves the poetry and philosophy issue. [/FONT]

 

It is important to recognize just who the is the subject of the short quote by a poet. This is not however using worldy poetry to reason with people. References to a quote by a poet and a pagan God does not constitute what is implied here and the preaching of the gospel cannot be done by using worldly methods and wisdom.

 

I also cannot prove from the Scripture that
velcro will hold shoes on feet. Nevertheless,
every day I use velcro to hold my shoes on
my feet

Originally Posted by 2 Timothy2:1-4
No Where in scripture does
it say Paul spoke to the greeks
with poetry and philosophy. ..

But it makes sense that Paul did that.
And it surely does not say in the Bible
"Paul never spoke to the Greeks with
poetry and philosophy."

So the point stands: we who work for
Messiah Jesus on earth need to learn the
'language' of communication for all sorts
of people: some of us need to learn to
communicate with redneck hicks, some of us need to
learn to communicates with intellectuals.
BTW, Paul was one of the leading Jewish
intellectuals of his time.

 

I am not sure what this means really with regards to what we are talking about. You implied that poetry and philosphy was used by Paul. If you cannot prove he did using scripture then whats your point?

 

I'll communicate with the intellectuals;
you communicate with the redneck hicks.
I will take the moral high ground and pray for
(while not despising) your ministry.
I will defend my ministry against the wrath
of the anti-intellectuals/pro-stupid factions.

 

Exactly. Paul was not trying to argue or prove the gospel, because that cannot be done. Since it is not worldly wisdom, it cannot be proven. Put it can be illustrated in different ways, so that people can more clearly understand what they need to accept in faith. Proving, arguing, and reasoning, are not the same as illustrating or explaining. Paul was not reasoning the gospel, which would be a worldly thing to do, he was illustrating a spiritual truth. And he was illustrating that truth with terms that were familiar to the people to whom he was speaking. He illustrated with worldly poetry and quotes from pagan statues, because they were familiar with that. He did not illustrate by referring them to the Jewish scriptures. But he did do that when he preached the gospel to Jews. As Paul wrote:

To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. (1 Corinthians 9:20-21 NASB)​

Paul never changed what he presented, but he did change how he presented it (at least the terminology).

 

May God Bless your ministry

 

I can understand some of this sentiment. If by "ignoranter" he meant the growing knowledge of the subtle attack (wrapped in the disguise of education and intellectualism) of satan against the fundamantals held by Bible believing Christians.


HankD

 

Was observing an interaction between two men. One had asked a simple question and was recieving a rather verbose, indepth reply when he looked over to me, rolled his eyes and said, "I asked him what time it is and he's telling me how to build a clock!!!!"

 

Rhetoric that is employed here shows the percieved superioirty from those who think they are intellectuals. It is sad. And it is what is driving many people away from the church.

Paul was not a leading intellectual. He cleared that up in 1 Cor 1. He specifically stated that while he knew many worldly things he came knowing nothing other than Christ and Him crucified. What reaches someone in a rural setting reaches a biker and reaches a business man. There is no communication barrier within subcultures. Cultures however contain some barriers that have nothig to do with wisdom. The problems communicating to someone from India are not the same as communicating with someone from the states but who lives within a different subculture. It is like equating homosexuality to the discrimination black folks have suffered. There si just no comparison there.

 

The rhetoric used here, is to me, the kind used toward those like I dealt with recently that claimed, "I don't care what the words actually say. I only care where the Holy Spirit leads me!"

While we must let the spirit lead us, if he leads us contrary to the written word, I highly doubt it's the Holy Spirit.

BTW, this was the kind of situation that the man was prying to be more inoranter.

He wasn't uneducated. And, he got to spend quite a lengthy bit of time with Jesus the Christ personally, on the back side of the desert... How much better an education can you get than that?

I disagree very strongly with this sentiment. I have had some success with some of the rougher types where others have failed, simply because I've been where they are. The uptight, stuffed shirt types were going, "Blah, blah, blah, you're going to hell! Blah, blah, blah." The Lord used me to speak to them because I understood them. Am I limited to that culture? No. I was raised half on a farm, half in a big city, I've been where these people are, I've been on a board of directors for a corporation, I've been a professional racer, I've had writings published in several different field, and I'm a part of the art community. (Being a part of the art community is really interesting when you're a white, heterosexual, conservative, Christian male, who doesn't look like the part.)

Different things reach different people, and often I find it much easier to communicate with those from a different place who speak English as a second language (except for Boston), because they listen to what you're saying. I can communicate with the Russians better than I can many non-Russians around here.

They are different, yes, but not necessarily more difficult.

I agree there is no comparison between these two, but what point are you trying to make with this interjection?

 

Ed Edwards said: //I'll communicate with the intellectuals;
you communicate with the redneck hicks.//

2 Timothy2:1-4 said: //Rhetoric that is employed here shows
the percieved superioirty from those who think
they are intellectuals. It is sad. And it is
what is driving many people away from the church.//

In Post #49 2 Timothy2:1-4 says:
// ... Jesus said in reference to little children
"to such belongs the kingdom of God".
... The use of the type of words by intellectuals
and postmodernists shows a conceit in themselves.
They are prideful in their language.
Prideful in how the can understand things
and it closes the door to knowing God.
God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud.
Intellectuals do not meet the definition of "such".//

Rhetoric that is employed here shows
the percieved superioirty from those who think
they are anti-intellectuals. It is sad. And it is
what is driving many people away from the church.//

1 Cor 1:25 (post #34 above):
//25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men;
and the weakness of God is stronger than men.//

Not: //the foolishness of some men is wiser than other men;
and the weakness of those men is stronger than other men.//

Originally Posted by 2 Timothy2:1-4
//It is like equating homosexuality to the discrimination
black folks have suffered. There si just no comparison there.//

Hope of Glory:
//I agree there is no comparison between these two,
but what point are you trying to make with this interjection?//

2 Timothy2:1-4: //There is no communication barrier within subcultures.//

He is trying to say as there is no comparison between
the pseudo-discrimination against homosexuals and
the real discrimination against blacks - in like manner there
is no comparison between the pseudo-communication problem
between subcultures (especially language) and the
real communication problems between cultures (especially language).

It really was an intellectual argument that 2 Tim2:1-4 made. :type:
Some of us lowbrows may have missed the point???

 

Is anyone here saying, that the other is not needed? If you are, then get down off your high horse and abide in your own calling.
Some of you will reach people I could never reach, then again, I will reach people that you could never reach. Bless be the name of the Lord who is wiser than us all. Wisdom hath already built her house and she hadth hewn out her seven pillars, she hath set her table, she hath mingled her wine and she reaches out her hand to the poor. Wisdom works in many ways and a wise man will know that, but a foolish man will say, my way or the highway.

BBob

 

Amen, Brother Bob -- Preach it! :thumbs:

 

Isn't that the truth! Good thing we're not all from a cookie cutter mold, eh?