Any Calvinist willing to walk through Romans 11 with me?

I agree with Kyredneck. (how about that??)

The vine represents the Body of Christ. No getting around the plain reading of the Word.

(Not a Calvinist, btw)

 

I agree that you can't get around the plain reading of the text, and thus context rules here. A 'tree' is not the same thing as a 'Vine' and any attempt to try to make them the same is futile at best, not only in the plain reading of the text but in the very context in which their meanings are established.While the Vine is without question Christ, the olive tree is not nor is it regarding 'the saved', lest we think God will take our salvation away from us (being removed).It is about two nations in God's plan - Israel and the Gentiles.

Here is a portion from Weirsby's commentary:

John MacArthur states the same thing:

 

I see your point. Thank you for pointing it out to me. I'll have to do a little more study, though at first glance it seems we are snipping at hairs. Like most scriptures that deal with "potentials" this passage seems to have influence on more than one event.

So while I don't disagree with what you posted above, I also can see how this passage influences the individual. Just as God didn't want a bunch of Jews running around worshipping other Gods, He certainly doesn't want us Gentiles doing the same thing.

 

I don't believe they were saved in the first place. I believe that most Jews thought of themselves as "saved" because they were decended from Abraham. Much like many of our church goers today that believe they are "saved" because their mama or daddy was or because folks in their family have "always gone to church".

 

Actually, the Jews believed themselves the "elect" of God. John the Baptist preached to the Pharisees and Sadducees that they must repent or turn from believing they were saved simply because they were descended from Abraham.

Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Simply believing you are the elect of God does not make it so.

 

Exactly. And what were they "elected" too? Certainly not an eternity of hell. AND they thought their election entitled them to God's continous approval, even though He warned them of the consequences of their disobedience.

There were certainly among them, though, individuals that held to the faith. Hence verses 1- 5.

Yes, I agree, what they thought, did not make it true.

 

Hello Allan,

I cannot disagree with the two commentators you've quoted concerning Israel and the Gentiles and the olive tree. In fact, I don't disagree with you on this in a huge way. Let me toss a couple things out there for you to chew on and consider and provide comment:

Compare this:

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away..........If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch

With this:

......if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off

Take note that the branches in Jn 15 were 'in me' [Christ; the vine], and they are taken away, cast forth, and are burned. The branches in Ro 11 are also part of the tree, but, if they continue not, they also will be taken away or cut off. I do not believe either passage is referring to losing one's eternal standing with God.

Would you care to share your thoughts on the similarities of these two passages?

 

"I thank God we do not believe in the measuring line of any form of bigotry. I remember meeting with one who knew, yes, he knew how many children of God there were in the parish where he lived—there were exactly five. I was curious to know their names, and much to my amusement he began by saying, “There is myself.” I stopped him at this point, with the query whether he was quite sure about the first one." —Charles Spurgeon, The Man With the Measuring Line

 

Allan said (emphasis mine):

I said:

....in agreement with Allan (I believe I'm correct that he means salvation in the eternal sense, which I do too).

You go first Skan. What's the correlation between these two 'cutting off' passages in Jn 15 and Ro 11? Are you saying one can lose their eternal salvation?

 

After studying the context a little closer, I don't see any mention of a "vine". If you see the word "vine" somewhere in your translation, please point it out to me.

I see a the words "root", "branches", a "wild olive" tree, and a cultivated "olive tree".

The "root" is directly connected to the "dough" in v.16. The "first piece" of dough (identified as the "root" of the cultivated olive tree) must be the Jewish patriarchs Abraham and Issac and Jacob (chp. 9. v.7-13) They were "holy" (set apart according to the promises of God) and recieved the promises of God by faith.

The cultivated olive tree represents the whole of the promises of God concerning salvation. These promises sprang forth from the root of the patriachs and center on/and are fulfilled in and by the person of Jesus Christ.

The branches represent those who accept or reject the promises. Those Jews who accept the promises are natural branches. They are the remnant of the Jews, the elect of God. They have recieved the promises by faith.

Those Jews who do not receive the promises by faith are cut off from the cultivated olive tree for unbelief. They are (in part or in whole) hardened by God against the truth of the promises found in Jesus Christ.

The wild olive tree represents the whole of the Gentiles. Those branches that are grafted into the cultivated olive tree are those who have proclaimed to have accepted the promises of God by faith in Jesus Christ. Just as with the natural branches, the wild branches can be cut off for unbelief.

I disagree with Allen (or at least with the commentaries he quoted) on the point of the restoration of National Israel. The point of these passages is not that National Israel will be restored separately from the Gentiles. It is speaking of a spiritual restoration.

There is only one cultivated olive tree. When the "hardening" is lifted from the Jews, both Jews and Gentiles are grafted into the one tree. This tree (or the branches) represents the whole of the people of God that have salvation by faith. They clearly include both Jew and Gentile.

I look forward to your response.

peace to youraying:

 

I don't believe the purpose of Paul in this text is to teach something about perseverence. It is better to focus on the purpose of the text in context.

Paul is using the analogy of the branches being "grafted" into the tree or broken off from the tree to represent Jews and Gentiles generally, not specifically. The Jews sprang from the "root" of the patriarchs, which recieved the promises of God by faith. Those branches that didn't recieve the promises by faith (i.e. they weren't one of the elect remnant spoken of earlier) were broken off and are hardened.

This general (not absolute) hardening of the Jews resulted in the gospel going to the Gentiles. The Gentiles, in general, are grafted onto the tree. This simply demonstrates that the promises of God, along with the salvation that comes with it, goes out to the Gentiles.

So, in general, those who remain part of the tree are saved. They are, IMHO, revealed to be the elect of God spoken of in earlier chapters, made up of Jews and Gentiles.

Being grafted into or broken off, therefore, isn't speaking of specific individuals gaining or loosing salvation. If that were true, the natural branches would have been born saved (they were Jews/branches), and could only loose salvation by being broken off.

Being grafted into or broken off is speaking, generally, of God's method in bringing about His purpose of redeeming the elect from both Jews and Gentiles.

Being "cutoff" for unbelief and "hardened" is referring to the Jews, generally, not individuals, which is clear from the context.

At some time in the future, the general hardening of the Jews will be lifted and many of those alive at that time will accept Jesus as Messiah (perhaps every single Jew). This is represented as the grafting in of those who were once cut off. It is referring to Jews generally, not specifically.

peace to youraying:

 

I stand by this statement:

Now if the first handful of dough offered as the firstfruits [Abraham and the patriarchs] is consecrated (holy), so is the whole mass [the nation of Israel]; and if the root [Abraham] is consecrated (holy), so are the branches. Ro 11:16 AMP

And if ye are Christ`s, then are ye Abraham`s seed, heirs according to promise. Gal 3:29

I am the true vine.... Jn 15:1

You said:

....and I don't agree with that. I agree with canadyjd (emphasis mine):

The Jews on the whole have been cut off from the promises and the benefits of salvation, i.e., the favor of God:

7 What then [shall we conclude]? Israel failed to obtain what it sought [God's favor by obedience to the Law]. Only the elect (those chosen few) obtained it, while the rest of them became callously indifferent (blinded, hardened, and made insensible to it).
15 For if their rejection and exclusion from the benefits of salvation were [overruled] for the reconciliation of a world to God, what will their acceptance and admission mean? [It will be nothing short of] life from the dead! AMP

 

I don't believe that. I have a woman in my church that is Jewish (by birth) and a Christian (by grace).

peace to youraying: