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Featured Apostolic Uniqueness

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Jul 15, 2021.

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  1. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    So is your term 'The 120'.
     
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Herman Bavinck in his book The Wonderful works of God writes; pg54,55

    The miracles which were performed in the Apostolic time by the first witnesses can be characterized as the works of the exalted Christ{Acts 3:6 and 4:10].
    They were necessary in order to demonstrate that Jesus, who had been rejected by the world, had been nailed to the cross and put to death, and was regarded as dead-that this Jesus was still alive and that He had all power in heaven and also upon the earth.
    The miracles of the OT.showed that Jehovah was God and that there was none beside Him.
    The miracles of the NT. show that Jesus Christ, the Nazarene, whom the Jews have crucified,has been raised of God and placed at His right hand as Prince and Savior.[Acts 4:10,5:30and 31]

    When this end has been achieved, when the Church has been planted in the world, a church which believes and confesses this revelation of the Father in the Son through the communion of the Holy Spirit, then the visible and external miracles cease,
    but the spiritual miracles of regeneration and conversion continue in the church until the fullness of the gentiles is come and all Israel is saved.
     
  3. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    Not at all. It is simply a reference to the 120 or so people in the Upper Room which is explicitly referenced in Acts 1. When Yeshua1 uses the adjective "greater," he is making an assertion of category or quality of apostle.
     
  4. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    Your assertions:

    (1) Paul was a so-called “greater Apostle”
    (2) Paul was the last one called.

    I asked for scriptural support for that position, and you claimed this:
    This seemed to be an misquoted allusion to 1 Corinthians 15:8, so I cited it to verify that it was the passage you were thinking of.

    You responded:
    Let’s look at your claims in light of the scripture you cited. I’m going to place verse 8 in the fuller context of 1 Corinthians 15:3-11:

    3 For I handed down to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

    First, notice verse 9. Paul claims he is the LEAST of the apostles, not a “greater Apostle.” He notes that Jesus first appeared to Peter (aka Cephas) and then The Twelve (v.5), then to 500 men and women at one time (v.6), then to James, and then all of the apostles (v.7). Notice that Paul does not include himself in any of those groups, even The Twelve.

    In verse 8, Paul has a peculiar way of referring to himself. In the NASB translation, it reads “one untimely born.” The Greek word that is being translated there is ἐκτρώματι, which means an “untimely birth,” a “miscarriage,” an “abortion” or a “premature birth.” <--(this is a hyperlink, go look at it yourself) He is completely rejecting the idea that he is greater than the others, but rather, that he is like the prematurely-birthed child, weaker and smaller than the regular children of the same age.

    As to your second assertion, he is NOT saying that he was the last one called. He was merely emphasizing that he started out far behind everyone else and is the least of the apostles.
     
  5. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    You need to go tell those people that and stop telling me. I have not once appealed to the charismatic movement's faith and practice for anything I have said.
     
  6. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Scripture

    “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” 2 Timothy 3:16–17 (KJV 1900)

    Tongues

    “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.” 1 Corinthians 13:9 (KJV 1900)

    “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.” 1 Corinthians 13:12 (KJV 1900)


    Peter says scripture is best.

    “And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” 2 Peter 1:18–21 (KJV 1900)
     
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    'About 120' would be Biblical, NOT 'the 120'.

    15 And in these days Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren, and said (and there was a multitude of persons gathered together, about a hundred and twenty), Acts 1

    ...and you've absolutely no scripture indicating that there were 134 people in the upstairs of that house.

    'The eleven' is Biblical, so is 'the twelve', and even 'the seventy' is Biblical, but there is no 'the 120'.
     
    #127 kyredneck, Jul 21, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021
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  8. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    I am well awake of this text, but Paul does not make the claim that scripture is the "perfect"/completeness that is to come. The KJV translates the word ἄρτιος as "perfect," it is not the same Greek word that appears in 1 Corinthians 13:10 for perfect/complete (τέλειον). The word ἄρτιος in 2 Timothy 3:17 means "adequate" or "equipped." Here's some discussion of the word if you are interested.

    We still see through a glass darkly. There are lots of things we do not know. but at the end of the age, we will know as we are known.


    Peter does NOT say "scripture is best," but he does honor those who wrote the Old Testament and points out that the new revelation found in Christ fulfills what has been written before and is a surer word of knowledge.
     
  9. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    Sure. Actually, I thought of writing "the approximately 120" on more than one occasion, but that is a clumsy phrase and would undermine comprehension. I decided that if Luke didn't obsess over the exact number, I shouldn't either. "The 120" is simply a shorthand way of referring to those in the Upper Room. The whole point is that I was trying to use some consistent terminology so we can have a discussion. If there is no agreed upon terminology, nor objective source of authority, discussion is simply shouting at each other, not a meeting of minds.

    Yeshua1 was using the term "greater apostle" to distinguish Paul from the rest of the apostles that were not part of The Twelve in a way that completely contradicted Paul's own words. Paul declared himself the least of the apostles, one that was prematurely born (1 Corinthians 15:8-9), so I was pushing Yeshua1 to actually quote scripture to support his assertions. He rarely quotes scripture, so it is hard to actually reason with him.

    True, but that was never the point.

    [/QUOTE]'The eleven' is Biblical...[/QUOTE]
    It is biblical, but does not indicate the specific way "The Twelve" was used in the New Testament. For instance, in 1 Corinthians 15:5, Paul refers to Jesus appearing to "The Twelve" after His resurrection and before His ascension. Judas Iscariot was dead and Mattias was not yet part of The Twelve, so there were only 11 apostles of The Twelve alive. Paul has not made an error here, he is simply reflecting the way The Twelve is used in the New Testament to distinguish them from the other apostles (see also Acts 6:2).

    If you are going to strain at gnats, "the seventy" may not be accurate. It could also be "the seventy-two" depending upon the Greek text and the translation you use for Luke 10:1.
     
  10. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    'The seventy' is Biblical, once:

    17 And the seventy returned with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons are subject unto us in thy name. Lu 10

    You think houses big and strong enough to accommodate 'the about 120' upstairs were common in Jerusalem?
     
  11. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    So you don't think scripture is complete and provides more info than tongues that Paul said was deficient? That is, they gave only partial knowledge? No hope of continuing with you.
     
  12. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    False.

    I don't think 1 Corinthians 13:10 is referring to canon of scripture. It is your interpretation I do not believe.

    False.

    I don't place any faith in tongues.

    Obviously, scripture only gives us partial knowledge. Otherwise, tell me the date and the hour of the return of Jesus and the coming of the fullness of the Kingdom.

    Tell me the nature of the resurrection body. Do we NEED to eat, or is that just for enjoyment. Do we have blood? If so, were the wounds of Jesus on His resurrected body clotted?

    If you are going to have the attitude you displayed here, trying to put false claims in my mouth and failing to interact with scripture, then I doubt there is much use talking to me.
     
  13. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    Nope, same issue.

    Common? Probably not.

    Did they exist? Almost certainly, especially since Luke tells us they were in one place.

    Remember, Jerusalem was a major city in that part of the world. There was a heavy Roman presence there. The Romans knew how to build large buildings.
     
  14. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Why do you defend Charismatics if you don't have faith in "tongues". You contradict yourself.
     
  15. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    I don't "defend charismatics." I'm pointing to the scripture and discussing and accurate interpretation of it. You are the one obsessed with dismissing the charismatic and Pentecostal movements as frauds.

    No, I don't.

    I think you are just frustrated because your proof texts don't actually prove what you think they do.
     
  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Actually 'the multitude of about a hundred and twenty' weren't named, but those abiding in the house that the Spirit filled were named:

    13 And when they were come in, they went up into the upper chamber, where they were abiding; both Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. Acts 1.

    Luke mentions ONLY 'the twelve' being in the house and filled with the Spirit.
     
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  17. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    Acts 1:13-15
    When they had entered the city, they went up to the upstairs room where they were staying, that is, Peter, John, James, and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. All these were continually devoting themselves with one mind to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

    At this time Peter stood up among the brothers and sisters (a group of about 120 people was there together)...


    Acts 2:1-2
    ...When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. And suddenly a noise like a violent rushing wind came from heaven, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting...
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Bible itself states that there was a difference between the 12 Apostles, and Paul and others called Apostles!!
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Paul was the greatest of all of the Apostles, as his theology was revealed and inspired to him by Jesus , and is the very heart of the NT !
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    the ministry of the Apostles of Christ was unique to their time!
     
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