Are 7th Day Adventists a cult?

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by Marcia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Posted by Pinoy Baptist
Something odd about this thread. I've gone from page 1 to page 5 looking for the name of Bob Ryan, who, according to his profile is a Seventh-
Day Adventist, yet, I don't find him in this discussion.

He's not posting here because only Baptists can post in this forum. </font>[/QUOTE]Oh, okay, thank you, Marcia. You're a light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[Russ Kelly]

Thunder
To answer your question:
SDAs belive that Satan will literally come and impersonate Christ while teacching that we should all worship on the Sabbath.

They believe in a literal heaven.
They believe that the resurrected wicked will be raised, judged and cast into gehenna to be totally destroyed. Only the results of hell are eternal.

Prophecy seminars: usually held by "world travelers" who try their best not to reveal that they are SDAs. We used to "borrow" SDA churches and cover up the sign outside in order to trick people. This was taught in my evangelism class.

Doctors' offices have the Uncle Arthur and Childrens' Books with disguised SDA theology. They are published by the Home Health Education Service which changes its name often to hide its identity.

Revivals use great video presentations of Daniel and Revelation. They stick with the gospel initially, then slide into soul-sleep, Sabbath, Ellen G. White, and end with the Mark of the Beast.

[ August 02, 2004, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: Russ Kelly ]

 

[Blazin4Christ]

in one way they are because their teachings are off, they believe in salvation and grace and Jesus dying, being truly saved they are. But they follow through salvation the wrong way, by the law, they get saved and go back to the law, when we are freed from the law, they are also mixed with other things so in the end they are like 50 percent cult 50 percent right

 

[GODzThunder]

What was it the Bible teaches, oh yes a man cannot serve two masters. A Church cannot claim to follow truth and adhere to heretic doctrines.

hence they are a cult.

 

[Blazin4Christ]

Originally posted by GODzThunder:
What was it the Bible teaches, oh yes a man cannot serve two masters. A Church cannot claim to follow truth and adhere to heretic doctrines.

hence they are a cult.

your right there, my mistake

 

[Craigbythesea]

What was it the Bible teaches, oh yes a man cannot serve two masters. A Church cannot claim to follow truth and adhere to heretic doctrines.

hence they are a cult.

Within the fellowship of Baptist churches, we find many very significant differences in belief, including the following:

• Amillennial
• Premillennial
• Postmillennial
• Pre-trim
• Mid-trib
• Post-trib
• Eternal security
• Conditional security
• Kingdom exclusion
• Kingdom inclusion
• Free grace Salvationism
• Lordship Salvationism
• Calvinistic
• Arminian
• Dispensational
• Covenant
• Divorce is always wrong
• Divorce is allowed only if one spouse commits adultery
• Divorce is allowed only if one spouse commits adultery or abandons the other spouse
• Divorce is allowed whenever necessary
• Divorce is a private matter and should be left up to the individual
• Remarriage (to a different spouse) is never allowed
• Remarriage (to a different spouse) is allowed after a divorce
• Reconstructionists
• Non-reconstructionists
• KJO
• Non-KJO

Since many of these views are diametrically opposed to one or more of the other views, some of them are necessarily false teachings. Therefore, please tell me which Baptist Churches are really non-Christian cults, and which ones are not. I'm a Conservative Baptist—is that denomination Christian, or a cult?

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Would you like me to give you several pages of direct quotes from The Great Controversy describing our "daughters of Babylon" churches?

That would at least be a start (but PLEASE include the page numbers so that I can verify the data). </font>[/QUOTE].
.
.
.
.

Am I to interpret all that blank space to mean that those pages do not exist, and that you just made up the whole thing? Shame, Shame, Shame!!!

 

[pinoybaptist]

Russ Kelly said:

SDAs belive that Satan will literally come and impersonate Christ while teacching that we should all worship on the Sabbath.

Well, I know of one 'fellowship', whose most well known representative claims to be Calvinist or Reformed, who claim that Satan is actually in the churches now, and no people are 'getting saved' anymore because the Holy Spirit is no longer operating in the churches, and is now opeating in the radio waves.

You know who that is ?

 

[Russ Kelly]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Am I to interpret all that blank space to mean that those pages do not exist, and that you just made up the whole thing? Shame, Shame, Shame!!! [/QB]

Craig
You must find it impossible to read things that prove you wrong. There are no blank pages. How can you possibly miss the five pages of Ellen White quotes on August 1st at 10:03PM; 1005PM; 1007PM; 1008PM and 1009PM????

Tell us, if you are a "Conservative Baptist," and not an SDA, then what part of SDA doctrine do you disagree with?

 

[Russ Kelly]

Pinoybaptist
Sorry, but I am not aware of the person you are speaking of? Can you give me more information?

The most foundational doctrine of SDAs is neither the Sabbath nor Soul Sleep...it is the Investigative Judgment. If you take away that doctrine (the three angels' messages of Revelation 14), you destroy the foundational blocks of the SDA church.

The Investigative Judgment doctrine is as much anti-Calvin as is possible. I seriously doubt that the fellowship you are referring to supprts the General Conference of SDAs in Washington, D.C.

 

[Marcia]

Since many of these views are diametrically opposed to one or more of the other views, some of them are necessarily false teachings. Therefore, please tell me which Baptist Churches are really non-Christian cults, and which ones are not.

Craig, surely you understand that there are teachings and interpretations that Christians can disagree on but still be one in Christ?

That is not the same thing as extra-biblical teachings like the Investigative Judgment, or teaching salvation by works, or teaching that someone's writings (Ellen White) is equal to the Bible.

I could be premill and you amill and someone pretrib and someone posttrib, etc., etc. but these are not divisive. However, is someone tells me I must accept Ellen White's writings as those of a prophet or that Jesus entered a heavenly sanctuary in 1844 to start judging everyone to see if they can be saved (including saved believers), then a line must be drawn. Those are divisive doctrines. They affect the whole way we see Jesus and salvation and the Bible.

 

[Craigbythesea]

There are no blank pages. How can you possibly miss the five pages of Ellen White quotes on August 1st at 10:03PM; 1005PM; 1007PM; 1008PM and 1009PM????

Russ,

I am very sorry, but I did somehow miss those pages of quotes from The Great Controversy. However, they are almost exclusively interpretations of The Revelation and the Book of Daniel, and I have many commentaries on those books written by “Christians” that were about as lost in space as Ellen G. White. I don’t believe that we can exclude the Seventh-day Adventists from the body of Christ on the basis of such interpretations of The Revelation and the Book of Daniel.

Have you studied the life and teachings of William Miller, the Baptist minister whose followers are known as the “Millerites”? (The very same William Miller E. G. White wrote about, as you quoted).

Tell us, if you are a "Conservative Baptist," and not an SDA, then what part of SDA doctrine do you disagree with?

The Seventh-day Adventists confuse many aspects of the two covenants, Law and Grace. Christians are under no obligation to observe the Sabbath on Saturday, or any other day. The doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is obviously a false doctrine invented to cover up an earlier false prophesy. Seventh-day Adventists also exalt Ellen G. White to the status of a prophet from God. I believe that she was a very confused woman and a false prophet.

However, very many Baptists, especially those who are dispensational, also confuse many aspects of the two covenants, Law and Grace. Many Baptists believe that we are under an obligation to keep the Sabbath, but on Sunday rather than Saturday. The doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is a much less dangerous error than the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture, but has its roots in the same movement. The junk about Ellen G. White is in a class all by itself—utterly disgusting.

Like you, I am disturbed by the dishonesty of many Seventh-day Advents congregations when it comes to inviting the public to prophesy conferences and the like. I have seen some Baptists do some pretty shoddy things to get new members, but nothing as bad as these Seventh-day Advent congregations.

The bottom line is that I draw the line in a more tolerant place on the scale than you do. I believe that the Roman Catholic Church is also a Christian church with its own set of problems. I have never been to a perfect church, even the church that I pastored was far from perfect—mostly because of me.

 

[Craigbythesea]

That is not the same thing as extra-biblical teachings like the Investigative Judgment, or teaching salvation by works, or teaching that someone's writings (Ellen White) is equal to the Bible.

Marcia,

There are no false doctrines in the Bible, and, therefore, ALL false doctrines are extra-Biblical teachings. And all false doctrines cause divisions in the Body of Christ. It is fundamentally wrong to say that false doctrines that are taught in Baptist churches are merely incorrect doctrines and that false doctrines that are taught in other churches are heresies. A false doctrine is a false doctrine, and the Baptist churches are full of them as I proved in the partial list of conflicting doctrines that I posted. The doctrine of the Investigative Judgment can be traced back to the year in which it was first invented, and so can the pre-trib doctrine and many other doctrines taught as Biblical truths in Baptist churches today. And if you believe that Ellen G. White was a false prophet (as do I), take a look at the book, The Rod, Will God Spare It? by J. D. Faust. This book is ardently defended by Baptist member Lacy Evans on this message board. Also, check out the teachings of Zane Hodges and the Grace Evangelical Society. The Grace Evangelical Society is radically non-Christian, but some prominent Baptist writers are endorsing its non-Christian teachings.

 

[Russ Kelly]

Craig
Finally you have convinced me that you are not an SDA.

Yes, there are true believers in every church, including SDA and Roman Catholic. It is too bad that many on both sides do not look upon Baptists as fellow beleivers. God saves us in spire of our stupid non-essential beliefs.

As an SDA minister 25 years ago I wrote articles on the Apostles Creed which were well received in the community. Beyond these basics there will of necessity be a great deal of variance unless we deny the doctrine of the "priesthood of believers."

Does the SDA church have doctrines which label them as a false cult? I say "Yes" -- especially EXCLUSIVISM. Will many of them be saved justd as we are, "Yes" -- in spire of their non-essential doctrines (which they call essential).

 

[Craigbythesea]

Russ,

Finally you have convinced me that you are not an SDA.

Good! That is not a church that I want to be identified with .

Why did you get involved in the SDA Church ?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
The Seventh-day Adventists confuse many aspects of the two covenants, Law and Grace.

It is not just confusion. The SDA's that I have been speaking to in the Other Religions forum, put themselves under the law deliberately. They believe that the law is for today, that the Law (especially the Ten Commandments--including the Sabbath) was never rescinded. There is much Scripture to refute this, especially that which is found in Exodus 31, where it explains in no uncertain terms that the Sabbath is given as a sign to the nation of Israel and to her generations forever.

Christians are under no obligation to observe the Sabbath on Saturday, or any other day.

That is correct. But the SDA's put themselves under an obligation to observe the Jewish Sabbath, and go even farther: stating that those who don't observe the Sabbath, but rather worship on Sunday already have the mark of the Beast. The SDA's are indeed a cult.

The doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is obviously a false doctrine invented to cover up an earlier false prophesy.

You are correct in stating that, but you have also uncovered two more aspects of a cult.
One is that its founder is a false prophet. In the Old Testament they were taken out and stoned to death. Paul, Peter, John, and Jesus all gave plenty of warnings throughout the New Testament to beware of false prophets, wolves in sheep's clothings, anti-christs, false teachers, ministers of Satan, etc.
The other false doctrine that you referred to is the investigative judgement, a doctrine which infers that Christ is still atoning for our sins. The full sacrifice on the cross was not sufficient.
Let me quote from Ellen White's "The Great Controversy" so you can get a good idea what this heresy is all about:

The major tenets of the Adventist doctrine of Investigative Judgment are as follows:

1. In October 1844, Jesus Christ entered the heavenly holy of holies to begin investigative judgment of the records (deeds, thoughts, attitudes, etc.) of those who have professed salvation. "Attended by heavenly angels, our great High Priest enters the holy of holies and there appears in the presence of God to engage in the last acts of His ministration in behalf of man—to perform the work of investigative judgment and to make an atonement for all who are shown to be entitled to its benefits ... in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work. ... The books of record in heaven, in which the names and the deeds of men are registered, are to determine the decisions of the judgment. ... The subject of the sanctuary and the investigative judgment should be clearly understood by the people of God ... every individual has a soul to save or to loose. Each has a case pending at the bar of God ... The intercession of Christ in man’s behalf in the sanctuary above is as essential to the plan of salvation as was His death upon the cross" (Ellen White, The Great Controversy, pp. 422-423).

2. The investigative judgment is based on the law of God (the Ten Commandments); the character of each person will be tested by the standard of this law. "Every man’s work passes in review before God and is registered for faithfulness or unfaithfulness. Opposite each name in the books of heaven is entered with terrible exactness every wrong word, every selfish act, every unfulfilled duty, and every secret sin, with every artful dissembling. Heaven-sent warnings or reproofs neglected, wasted moments, unimproved opportunities, the influence exerted for good or for evil, with its far-reaching results, are all chronicled by the recording angel. The law of God is the standard by which the characters and the lives of men will be tested in the judgment. ... Those who in the judgment are ‘accounted worthy’ will have a part in the resurrection of the just. ... Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God’s remembrance. ... All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life. ... Sins that have not been repented of and forsaken will not be pardoned and blotted out of the books of record, but will stand to witness against the sinner in the day of God" (Ellen White, The Great Controversy, pp. 424-425, 428).

3. This judgment determines the eternal destiny of every professing believer. No one can be sure of eternal life until this judgment is complete. "The righteous dead will not be raised until after the judgment at which they are accounted worthy of ‘the resurrection of life.’ Hence they will not be present in person at the tribunal when their records are examined and their cases decided. ... Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected ... all who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of their probation, afflict their souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance. ... The work of preparation is an individual work. We are not saved in groups. The purity and devotion of one will not offset the want of these qualities in another. ... Everyone must be tested and found without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. ... When the work of the investigative judgment closes, the destiny of all will have been decided for life or death" (Ellen White, The Great Controversy, pp. 425, 431-432).

(Fundamentalist Library 2000)

The Bible teaches that our salvation is decided in the here and now, when we trust Christ. We don't have to wait until "this judgement" to find out about our salvation. There is just too much heresy in this doctrine to go through. This is indeed a cult, its teachings emanating from the demonic visions of one strange woman.

Seventh-day Adventists also exalt Ellen G. White to the status of a prophet from God. I believe that she was a very confused woman and a false prophet.

Yes she is.

However, very many Baptists, especially those who are dispensational, also confuse many aspects of the two covenants, Law and Grace. Many Baptists believe that we are under an obligation to keep the Sabbath, but on Sunday rather than Saturday. The doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is a much less dangerous error than the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture, but has its roots in the same movement.

Hogwash! I believe in a pre-trib rapture, and I believe it to be a very sound and Biblically based doctrine. The SDA's believe that Satan is the scape-goat that carried their sins away in the wilderness. You say that both doctrines are just as "dangerous" as the other.
The one teaches us to look for the second coming of Christ.
The other gives us a false view of salvation, and leads people to Hell. Now, seriously, how can you say that the investigative judgement is less dangerous??
Concerning some of your above statements, you might want to study these out:
1. The Bible is a dispensational book.
2. The covenants in the Bible were given to the Israelites not the Christians.
3. A pre-trib, pre-mil view of the Bible is the correct view. I am not opinionated, just dogmatic.

The junk about Ellen G. White is in a class all by itself—utterly disgusting.

There is a lot of "junk" that can be "honestly" documented and verified through her own works that completely discredit her and demonstrate beyond any shadow of a douby that she is a false prophet, the leader of a false cult.

Like you, I am disturbed by the dishonesty of many Seventh-day Advents congregations when it comes to inviting the public to prophesy conferences and the like. I have seen some Baptists do some pretty shoddy things to get new members, but nothing as bad as these Seventh-day Advent congregations.

What do Baptists have to do with it? We are speaking of the SDA's Your logic here is much like the Catholics. Does the immorality of one Baptist preacher negate all the sexual abuse and pedophilia of the Catholic priesthood? Because one person of one faith sins does that make it right for another to sin continually?

The bottom line is that I draw the line in a more tolerant place on the scale than you do. I believe that the Roman Catholic Church is also a Christian church with its own set of problems. I have never been to a perfect church, even the church that I pastored was far from perfect—mostly because of me.

The Bible draws the line when it says to come out from among them and be ye separate saith the Lord.
"How can two walk together lest they be agreed."

2 Corinthians 6:14-17 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

SDA's are a cult which the true believer in Christ should have no fellowship with, except to win them to Christ. They are false teachers being used of the devil to send people to Hell.
2John 9-11 teaches not even to let them into your house, not even to say good-bye to such people.
I do not hate people; I hate the false doctrine.
It is important to keep focused and distinguish between the two.
DHK

 

[Craigbythesea]

Hogwash! I believe in a pre-trib rapture, and I believe it to be a very sound and Biblically based doctrine.

You believe in a doctrine of men that has been proven to be false. I could quote on this message board hundreds of thousands of writings written before 1825 in which a different doctrine was taught regarding the second coming of Christ, but you can not quote even one single writing written before 1825 in which the pre-trib rapture is taught. The Bible was not written so that it could not be understood until after 1825!

You say that both doctrines are just as "dangerous" as the other.

No, I did not! I wrote, “The doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is a much less dangerous error than the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture, but has its roots in the same movement.”

The one teaches us to look for the second coming of Christ.

The one teaches us that WE DO NOT NEED TO PREPARE TO GO THROUGH THE GREAT TRIBULATION. This is a lie from hell!

The other gives us a false view of salvation, and leads people to Hell.

The other warns the believers about the coming Great Tribulation so that they will be prepared to deal with it when it comes.

Now, seriously, how can you say that the investigative judgement is less dangerous??

Absolutely! The doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is a false doctrine, but it is essentially harmless. It is like teaching that Jesus was married, or that James and Jude were his cousins rather than his half brothers.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Concerning some of your above statements, you might want to study these out:
1. The Bible is a dispensational book.

Dispensationalism is a lie from hell that so badly confuses those who believe in it that it radically obscures for them the Biblical teaching of the atonement of Christ.

2. The covenants in the Bible were given to the Israelites not the Christians.

Someday, when you have the time, pick up a Bible and look at the table of contents. You will find that it is divided into two sections, the Old Testament and the New Testament. Then read Heb. 8:6 in the Greek New Testament and you will find the word διαθήκη. Then read Heb. 8:6 in the KJV version and you will find that it says,

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Now look up the word διαθήκη in a Greek lexicon and you will find that it means either covenant or testament. If you don’t have a Greek lexicon, use the very brief one in the back of a copy of Strong’s Concordance and you will find,

G1242
διαθήκη
diathēkē
dee-ath-ay'-kay
From G1303; properly a disposition, that is, (specifically) a contract (especially a devisory will): - covenant, testament.

The Old Testament if called the Old Testament because the primary subject of it is the old testament, that is, the old covenant—the covenant of Law.

The New Testament is called the New Testament because the primary subject of it is the new testament, that is, the new covenant—the covenant of Grace.

Dispensationalism is a tool of Satan to confuse Christians so that they will miss even the most vital teachings of the Bible.

 

[Craigbythesea]

3. A pre-trib, pre-mil view of the Bible is the correct view. I am not opinionated, just dogmatic.

No, it is not. If it were, someone would have noticed that fact before 1825! The false doctrine of the pre-trib rapture and the false doctrine of the Investigative Judgment are both lies from hell.

What do Baptists have to do with it?

People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.

 

[Craigbythesea]

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