Are 7th Day Adventists a cult?

[DHK]

Originally posted by Russ Kelly:
DHK
You have really gone to far when you say that you have never met an SDA who was saved?

Exactly what is the outward manifestation of a saved person? Have you every met a BAPTIST whom you were 100% positive was saved? I can only be sure about ME, not YOU. There are simply too may pretenders out there.

I will assure you that there are may millions of SDAs and even Roman Catholics who love the Lord with all their heart to the very best of their ability and knowledge. Most have never been exposed to our Baptist faith and God is not gong to send them to hell because we failed to evangelize them. They repeat the Apostles Creed just as we do.

At the age of 8 I was saved in a Southern Baptist Church. At the age of 29 I became an SDA for 10 years. Did I fall from grace? My faith in Christ and love for God never changed. Although I was certainly deluded by false doctrine, I was pushed there by false Southern Baptist doctrine concerning the Ten Commandments and Sunday. Who was to blame? A great many SDAs came out of the Baptist church!!!

Christ's flock can be found in many other folds, nations, toungues and peoples.

The only premise that I go by is that it is impossible for one to believe conflicting ideologies or theolgies concerning Christ and salvation and still be saved. Who is Christ? Did He atone for our sins? If the SDA's don't believe in the Christ of the Bible, and don't believe that Christ atoned for our sins, but rather that Satan himself had a part in bearing the penalty of our sins, then you tell me how one can be saved believing that theology?
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Russ Kelly:
DHK
You have really gone to far when you say that you have never met an SDA who was saved?

No, it is the truth. I never have met an SDA that is saved. I ask for their testimony.

Exactly what is the outward manifestation of a saved person? Have you every met a BAPTIST whom you were 100% positive was saved? I can only be sure about ME, not YOU. There are simply too may pretenders out there.

You are right there. "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Who can know it?" Only God knows the heart. There are many unsaved people, even in IFB circles. I admit that.

I will assure you that there are may millions of SDAs and even Roman Catholics who love the Lord with all their heart to the very best of their ability and knowledge. Most have never been exposed to our Baptist faith and God is not gong to send them to hell because we failed to evangelize them. They repeat the Apostles Creed just as we do.

I came out of Roman Catholicism. I never heard a clear presentation of the gospel for the twenty years that I was in the Catholic Church. I don't believe that anyone who is knowledgeable about Catholic doctrine and what the Bible teaches about salvation can be a Catholic and a Christian at the same time. The one teaches salvation by works; the other salvation by grace. There is a big difference. These so-called "Catholic Christians" are deceived.

At the age of 8 I was saved in a Southern Baptist Church. At the age of 29 I became an SDA for 10 years. Did I fall from grace? My faith in Christ and love for God never changed. Although I was certainly deluded by false doctrine, I was pushed there by false Southern Baptist doctrine concerning the Ten Commandments and Sunday. Who was to blame? A great many SDAs came out of the Baptist church!!!

A great many J.W.'s came out of Baptist churches. That doesn't say much for the teaching that Baptists are giving their flocks. I don't know about your salvation at the age of 8. I have four children. Some of them were sure of their salvation at that age, some were not. One of the had made a profession by that age, but later on we discovered it was not real. There are many false professions, especially among children.
However you made a conscious decision to enter into a cult. For what reason I would not know. By that age you should have known that it was in error. It is our duty to study the Bible. I can't blame it on my own local church.

Christ's flock can be found in many other folds, nations, toungues and peoples.

Yes, in many nations and peoples, but only where Christ has been preached, and the gospel has gone forth. Christ's flock is not found among the pagan people and in false religions. If that were true, there would be no reason for the great commission, no reason for evangelism, no need to ever tell anyone about Christ.
DHK

 

[pinoybaptist]

DHK said:

The only premise that I go by is that it is impossible for one to believe conflicting ideologies or theolgies concerning Christ and salvation and still be saved. Who is Christ? Did He atone for our sins? If the SDA's don't believe in the Christ of the Bible, and don't believe that Christ atoned for our sins, but rather that Satan himself had a part in bearing the penalty of our sins, then you tell me how one can be saved believing that theology?
DHK

Think about it this way.

In the time of Abraham, were there people in other continents ? Were these human beings God's creations also ? Was God confined to just that little part of the globe where He was dealing with, and revealing Himself to, Abraham ?
Were all those people dying because they did not know the God of Abraham all going to hell ?

What about during the time of the Exodus, and the time of the judges ? God had no people outside of the Jews ? When He said, 'Is my hand shortened that it cannot save' was that hand of salvation only for the Jews ?

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
In the time of Abraham, were there people in other continents ?

Yes

Were these human beings God's creations also ?

Yes

Was God confined to just that little part of the globe where He was dealing with, and revealing Himself to, Abraham ?

No, but that is what He said He was doing.

Were all those people dying because they did not know the God of Abraham all going to hell ?

Yes

What about during the time of the Exodus, and the time of the judges ? God had no people outside of the Jews ?

Yes

When He said, 'Is my hand shortened that it cannot save' was that hand of salvation only for the Jews ?

It was for His elect

What on earth is your point? Some sort of universalism cult? Gospel to Mormon Indians in the Americas? Get a grip.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
Think about it this way.

In the time of Abraham, were there people in other continents ? Were these human beings God's creations also ? Was God confined to just that little part of the globe where He was dealing with, and revealing Himself to, Abraham ?
Were all those people dying because they did not know the God of Abraham all going to hell ?

What about during the time of the Exodus, and the time of the judges ? God had no people outside of the Jews ? When He said, 'Is my hand shortened that it cannot save' was that hand of salvation only for the Jews ?

The Bible says quite often that Israel was a nation called out of God. Out of all the nations of the world, God called out the nation of Israel. He never left the world without a witness. One may start with the time of Noah, a preacher of righteousness who preached for 120 years and yet only 8 were saved.
From those 8 they had the responsibility of telling the truth of God as they multiplied, and were told to spread abroad. But apparently they did not do a very good job in that. For shortly after they gathered together and built a tower "reaching unto the heavens" defying the command of God to spread abroad. God saw their wickedness and confounded their languages.
From that time, God called out Abraham, a man that believed God, and therefore it was counted unto him for righteousness. Abraham's own family lived in pagan idolatry. God called him out of that. It was to Abraham that God gave the promise that he would be the father of many nations. The nation of Israel descended from him

It was the nation of Israel's duty to be a light to the Gentile nations, and so they were when they were obedient to God.
Rahab the harlot believed God before Israel reached Jericho because she heard of the miracles that the God of the nation Israel had done on behalf of Israel. Ruth readlily accepted the God of Israel because of Naomi's testimony in Moab.

Both Nahum and Jonah were "missionaries" to Nineveh. All Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah.
When the Israelites made their Exodus out of Egypt many Egyptians came with them. They were only permitted to come if they had been circumcised, that is if they had actually accepted the faith of the Israelites.

As God called out the nation of Israel in the Old Testament and made them a light to the nations around them, so He is doing likewise in this generation, and is calling out a people unto himself "to lead people from darkness to light to shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light." (1Pet.2:9)
Paganism and Christianity are not and never were compatible. God calls all men to repent. It is our duty to take the Great Commission to the lost.
DHK

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Russ Kelly:
DHK
You have really gone to far when you say that you have never met an SDA who was saved?

Exactly what is the outward manifestation of a saved person? Have you every met a BAPTIST whom you were 100% positive was saved? I can only be sure about ME, not YOU. There are simply too may pretenders out there.

I will assure you that there are may millions of SDAs and even Roman Catholics who love the Lord with all their heart to the very best of their ability and knowledge. Most have never been exposed to our Baptist faith and God is not gong to send them to hell because we failed to evangelize them. They repeat the Apostles Creed just as we do.

At the age of 8 I was saved in a Southern Baptist Church. At the age of 29 I became an SDA for 10 years. Did I fall from grace? My faith in Christ and love for God never changed. Although I was certainly deluded by false doctrine, I was pushed there by false Southern Baptist doctrine concerning the Ten Commandments and Sunday. Who was to blame? A great many SDAs came out of the Baptist church!!!

Christ's flock can be found in many other folds, nations, toungues and peoples.

Thank you, Russ. Amen!

 

[Marcia]

Whether a group of people are all saved or not to me is not the issue. God did not call us to determine who is saved but he did tell us to reject false teachings and teachings that are contrary to God's word. The SDA teachings are contrary to God's word and should therefore be rejected. The Investigative Judgment is an insult to Christ's atonement. God severely condemns false teachings and both Christ and Paul warned of false teachers.

I do, however, tend to agree with DHK that people who continuously believe in false doctrines are not as likely to be saved (Russ, you did come out of the SDA eventually) as those who are accepting true doctrine. I know someone who as a new believer got into a cult, but he realized 2 yrs. later the teachings were wrong and he left. So undoubtedly there are some saved people in cults (more or less accidentally I would say), but the teachings are still wrong, no matter how many saved people may happen to be in the group where the false teachings are.

So what we are to evaluate are the teachings and to reject them when they are contrary to God's word, which many of the SDA teachings blatantly are.

 

[Craigbythesea]

So what we are to evaluate are the teachings and to reject them when they are contrary to God's word, which many of the SDA teachings blatantly are.

Amen and Amen!

 

[Russ Kelly]

Originally posted by Marcia:
[QB] Whether a group of people are all saved or not to me is not the issue. God did not call us to determine who is saved but he did tell us to reject false teachings and teachings that are contrary to God's word. ...
So undoubtedly there are some saved people in cults (more or less accidentally I would say), but the teachings are still wrong, no matter how many saved people may happen to be in the group where the false teachings are.

You touch my point well. Many in cults have been born and raised in them and have never had the opportunity to explore other faiths or have never had any reason to doubt their own cult.

First, let me say that SDAs are Trinitarian!!!
Second, let me say that most of them have personal faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior.
Third, from my observation, they read their Bibles more than most Baptists.
Fourth, SDAs teach that Satan's role as the scapegoat sin-bearer is only his part in causing us to sin (which I still disagree with).
Fifth, they are still a false cult!!

However, they read their Bibles with the mindset that Ellen G White's writings can resolve any questionable texts. We see many similar attitudes among fanatical Baptists who follow their own charismatic leader.

When we are saved because (as God's elect) we accept Christ's redemption for us and pledge to serve him as Lord.

We are not saved because we have correct doctrine in all ares of theology!! What a foolish notion!!! Read these BaptistBoard.com threads wnd tell me who correctly understands all doctrine and has an exclusive claim to salvation!!!

Yikes, Craig and I agree for a change!!!

 

[Craigbythesea]

Yikes, Craig and I agree for a change!!!

Amazing, but very true!

We got off to a bad understanding because of mutual misunderstandings.

 

[Russ Kelly]

Everybody
It seems that we have worn out this thread.

You have peeked my curosity, though.

New thread: Does God only save those who have correct doctrine? See you there.

 

[Ben W]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ben W:


IFB Churches are typically pastored by men who have less education and knowledge of the Bible than does my two-year-old grandson, and yet they are hyper-critical of everyone who does not conform to their pre-school knowledge of Biblical theology. They have never even bothered to read the Bible, but are quite content to read only translations of it, and have never darkened the door of a University, and yet they believe that they alone have all the answers and all the truth. My reply to them is, “Hogwash!”

More slander. Are you going to tell Dr. Bob that his education is equivalent to your two year old grandson? There are plenty of people posting on this board that have been posting (by my observation) over your head. Your arguments in many forums have been defeated. Your attitude here is very very arrogant.
You are content to demean the pastors posting here (representative of many Baptist churches) illiterate. Shame on you!!
Why don't you post your educational backround?

Many of the pastors here have Ph.d's and D.D's, D.Div's, as well as others having Masters degrees. But you don't respect any of that??
You are content to slander and whitewash all baptists as illiterate two yearolds.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Being a Moderator DHK, I expect an apology for this that you have accused me of. This is not my work, I have no idea as to why you have written "Originally Posted by Ben W" When it is actually written by someone else. What gives you the right to accuse me of "Slander" and to make rude remarks that I "slander and whitewash" all Baptists?

 

[Ben W]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ben W:

I would go as far as to say that any church teaching KJVO, that "the Word" is the 1611 KJV is as bad as "Investagative Judgement" Consider the many anti KJVO threads in the version forum and you will see plenty of evidence as to why this is a heretical doctrine of some Baptist churches. </font>[/QUOTE]Have you visited the various threads on the versions forum. The remark that you have just made, white-washing most Baptist churches as KJVO is slander. They are a small minority among Baptists. So stop branding us with another cult (at least those of the Ruckmanite type).

If, as you say, you have seen the evidence yourself, why do you even bring it up?

Again, the Investigative Judgement doctrine is one of the most heretical and dangerous doctrines ever to be promosted by a cult. It does away with the atonement of Christ, that Christ paid the penalty for our sins, and thus does away with our very salvation.
SDA is based on a works salvation, not salvation by grace through faith. Even to be associated with this cult is unbiblical.
DHK [/QUOTE]

This however is my own work, however I would like to know how you get "White washing most Baptist Churches" from "heretical doctrine of "SOME" Baptist churches.

 

[Ben W]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ben W:


IFB Churches are typically pastored by men who have less education and knowledge of the Bible than does my two-year-old grandson, and yet they are hyper-critical of everyone who does not conform to their pre-school knowledge of Biblical theology. They have never even bothered to read the Bible, but are quite content to read only translations of it, and have never darkened the door of a University, and yet they believe that they alone have all the answers and all the truth. My reply to them is, “Hogwash!”

More slander. Are you going to tell Dr. Bob that his education is equivalent to your two year old grandson? There are plenty of people posting on this board that have been posting (by my observation) over your head. Your arguments in many forums have been defeated. Your attitude here is very very arrogant.
You are content to demean the pastors posting here (representative of many Baptist churches) illiterate. Shame on you!!
Why don't you post your educational backround?

Many of the pastors here have Ph.d's and D.D's, D.Div's, as well as others having Masters degrees. But you don't respect any of that??
You are content to slander and whitewash all baptists as illiterate two yearolds.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Despite the open animosity posted here for stuff that is not mine, I am happy to answer your question. Firstly I have never refused to show respect to anyone for their eduction. I have nothing but respect for the Pastors that post here.

My educational Backround is that I have a very basic certificate in New and Old Testament Theology, and I am currently at Bible College working on a Bachelor of Theology. My lecturer in this course is a Baptist Minister with many years of experience. My own Theology is Baptist.

 

[Dr. Bob]

I apologize on behalf of the Moderators here if quotations were attributed to you and were not your words. Mistakes happen.

And to all - when we quote a post, please do not go in and CHANGE what the person said, even to make it less offensive. Moderators work hard to &lt;snip&gt; out ad hominem attacks, the "h" word (heresy - although a lot of it is flying on this thread!) - inuendo, etc.

And feel free to pm or Report post (at the bottom of every post is a "whistle" that sends a message to every moderator of the forum). We DO care.

 

[DHK]

Ben,
I do apologize for attributing Craig's response to you, and thus responding in the way that I did to you. I did not realize it was Craig's post until Marcia quoted it, attributing it to Craig.

When I quoted from your post, which you admit is your own post, you compare the Investigative Judgement to KJVO of the Baptists, but then put a small qualifier (that I didn't see) in there, the word "some." Surely you really didn't mean that. If you did, your comparison wouldn't make sense. Are you comparing a doctrine that ALL the SDA's beleive in to a teaching that only a very small minority of Baptists believe in? That comparison doesn't make sense. It is apples and oranges. The impression came off as I believe it was intended: Here is the belief of the SDA's; and here is the belief of the Baptists. Let's compare them--if one is heretical then they both are. Was it a fair comparison. No.
DHK

 

[Repent_and_Believe]

Because they put other writings on a par with scripture (leadership does this - not all SDAs) then they are a cult.

That is the basic premise for a cult. Mormons, Russelites (they are NOT Jehovah's Witnesses!), et al.

I also consider the teachings of the Jewish Rabbis of today to be culitic as well since they believe the Babylonian Talmud over scripture in many cases. The Talmud directs them to do things contrary to scripture thus they too could be considered a cult.

They claim something but stand on nothing.