Are All Men Drawn Equally?

...but in calling us He also told us what we were going to get, and what we would lose out on if we didn't.

 

I think, respectfully, that that is a horrible remark that comes from an unfortunate man centered theology.

I am not the reason he came and YOU are not the reason he came.

He came to do the will of him that sent him.

To seek and to save THAT which was lost; not THOSE who are lost.

To please his father.

Now he does love you and I and the whole world- but this thing is not about you and me. It is about HIM.

He doesn't even save you FOR you. He does it FOR Christ's glory.

Christ is the reason for the season.

 

Why is there such opposition to the notion that man is saved simply b/c God chose him to be saved? If man is saved through God’s foreknowledge of that man 1 day having faith---does the 1 who God knew 1 day would not have faith—really have the opportunity to be saved when he hears the gospel? If election is before the foundation of the world (whether its based on God’s sovereign choice or His foreknowledge)—can the 1 who did not make this elect group have a genuine opportunity for salvation? Who so ever shall come—but in the end-- it is only the elect who come.
Eph 1:4-5
“even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will”

Acts 13:48-
“And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.”

I could go on with 2 Tim 1:9, Rom 8:29-30, 1 Pet 1:2, ect.
The question becomes—can someone who does not fit the description of these verses respond in the affirmative to the gospel call? Are they going to respond to God’s calling, even though before time began (or before He created them) God knew they wouldn’t?

 

God allowed and allows man to reject his grace and his offer of salvation.

 

He came to do the will of him that sent him...and that is to die for sinners.
It's not one or the other. The season is to celebrate His birth AND His death, burial and resurrection for mankind. Both is the correct answer and nothing "man centered" about it. Is that really necessary?

 

To your bolded statement...the opposition is due to the fact God has outlined in His Word who and how one is saved and who He chooses.

The reformed model is purely linear, but God's model is much greater than that. That is why I disagree with the reformed understanding (God chooses who will be saved) and the Arminian understanding (God looks through the corridors of time to see who will be saved). Both are lacking.

 

Very good answer-the idea that who so ever will come but in the end its only the elect who come—seems like a human paradox—but in reality it’s a biblical (spiritual) truth—one I’m trying to work out, without fixating on one particular soteriological theory.

 

See you say free will is such a grand thing that it warrants God creating a world where many billions will perish in hell.

I say God's GLORY is that grand. God is able to display his grace and mercy and holiness and wrath because of the fall.

It is about what we value most I think that separates our systems. And I think that the Bible teaches that God's glory and the display of it to the fullest including grace and mercy is the purpose for the whole universe's existence.

You must say that the purpose for the whole universe's existence is so that God will have some who freely choose to love him.

Does God NEED the love of fallen mortals?

Does he not get all the love that he "needs" within the Trinity?

 

I believe that is the way it should be approached. God is omnipresent, and by extension omni and a-temporal. He exists in all point of time at the same time, something the finite mind cannot fathom. Any and all usage of linear terms are for the benefit of linear beings...us. In truth, there is no pre or "fore" (time phrases) before the creation of time, yet those are phrases used to give us a glimpse of God awesomeness.

As for the "elect", I believe when used in Scripture it is referring to true Israel....but that's a whole topic in itself

 

I completely agree that God is atemperal (or is not limited to time)—I think 2 Pet 3:8 & Ps 90:1-6 prove this point. But I personally don’t think this means that God doesn’t act in time or his actions cannot be classified as taking place in time. (ex the incarnation took place in time). In Eph 1:4 the phrase “before the foundation of the world” is pro kataboles kosmou—the normal meaning of “pro” is temporal & indicating some kind of sequential order. Ex: Jn 17:24—Jesus states that God loved him b4 the foundation of the world. So the Trinity had a relationship before the world was created (albeit eternal –it was a relationship that preceded the creation process—thus in some way related to time). This same phrase is used in Eph 1:4—that before the foundation of the world we were chosen in him. So before the world is created there is a choosing process (regardless of what this choosing is based on). If God is omniscient (which He clearly is) then He will know who will be saved before they are created. Even if middle knowledge is allowed into this omniscience—unless open theism is advocated (the idea that God does not know the future b/c it has not happened yet)—we are left with God knowing who will respond to the gospel call before that individual has had the opportunity to respond to this call. Eph 1:4-5 is clearly not limited to Israel—so can the one who is not chosen really respond to God’s salvation call?