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Are Catholics really Christians?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by valueoftruth, Dec 30, 2005.

  1. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Here is the quote from Catholic Encyclopedia


    Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.


    Apparently this is connected with Prayer to the Dead, which is derived from Apochrypa.
    Their view on Salvation is very much related to the Works, or Grace+ Good Works.
     
  2. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Thanks to Zealouswest.

    Now I got the statement from there too:

    The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031).

    The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

    I am not sure even the Born-Again RC goes to Purgatory or not. If yes, how long should they spend time in Purgatory (in general or what's the maximum period?)

    Can you answer me on this?
     
  3. zealouswest

    zealouswest New Member

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    Interestingly, St. Paul prays for the late Onesiphorus saying:

    So prayer for the dead is not unheard of, even WITHIN the Protestant/Lutheran canon.

    Also interesting is that the earliest christian burial sites have inscriptions asking BOTH for prayers for the deceased, and for the deceased to pray for those of us still living.

    My understanding of Purgatory:

    Scripture teaches that nothing unclean can enter heaven. We die saved, but we are still attached to sin, washed though we are. When we are in heaven that attachment will no longer be a part of us. Somewhere between death here and resurrection t here we are cleansed from this; one might say we are "purged" through the blood of Christ (NOT in addition to!). That is what purgatory is. It is primarily a STATE of purification, not a place. It's not a final destination or a work apart from Christ.

    And, it's biblical. Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins.

    Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

    There is no set lenght of time. It could be - or feel like - close to an eternity; or be over in a minute. To my understanding this is an area open to theological speculation for the Catholic. The existence of purgatory, however, is not.

    Peace of Christ.
     
  4. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    That's about as pharasaical, presumptuous, and unrighteous as I've ever heard. My own mother is a Catholic, and while I disagree with her religion, I can tell you with 100% certainty that she is saved. I myself was brought to the Lord by a Catholic priest. Many of my close friends in high school were Catholic, and I can tell you with 100% assuredness that every single of them is saved.

    Of course, I know Catholics who are not. I know a few presbyterians and a few Baptist who likely are not.

    Sorry, but the Kingdom of God is not a respector of peoples' denominational affiliations. It is a respector of a person's heart.
     
  5. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    So prayer for the dead is not unheard of, even WITHIN the Protestant/Lutheran canon.
    (really Lutheran?)


    Wasn't Onesiphorus alive at the time when Paul wrote 2 Tim 1:16?
    Look at 2 Tim 4:19.
    Were Prisca and Aquia, Onesiphorus alive yet or not? Were they all dead ?

    I have heard for the first time from you that there is a clue for the Prayer to Dead in NT, not only in Apochrypa .

    ___________________________________________________
    <<<Originally posted by zealouswest>>>
    And, it's biblical. Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins.
    UQT
    _____________________________________________________


    Can such a person be saved by passing thru Purgatory? Wah!
    By human effort? Wah!
    Thru the pains ? wow!
     
  6. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Charles Meadows,

    You said, 'Remember it has nothing to do with what church one goes to but rather what one believes.'

     
  7. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    I am simply amazed that such a proposition should even be entertained, let alone go on for two pages or more. Whatever became of intelligence?

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  8. zealouswest

    zealouswest New Member

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    Onesiphorus was dead, hince the greeting is to his house and not to him and his house. The prayer is for him on the Day.

    Yes. No. No.

    Purgatory is about a purging of the remains of sin which most obviously affect all of us - saved or otherwise - but which will not affect us in heaven.

    It's not an idea foreign to scripture or reasonable thought. You don't have to be Catholic to believe in Purgatory.
     
  9. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    I wonder what's the meaning of Indulgence here. Is it the same as Indulgence at the time of Luther?

    Catholic Catechism

    1498 Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory.
     
  10. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    If Onesiphorus was already dead, was Paul addressing to the HOUSEHOLD of Onesiphorus, not to Onesiphorus, ?

    Look at 4:19

    Salute the household of Onesiphorus.
     
  11. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    This is interesting for understanding RC's salvation:


    1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin." From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
    Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.


    Hope someone can comment the above based on Isaiah 8:19

    And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
     
  12. Debby in Philly

    Debby in Philly Active Member

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    I thought Purgatory was invented to sell indulgences to pay for the building of St. Peter's in Rome.
    No different than selling mass cards today.
     
  13. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    In terms of Salvation, RC has serveral issues, Purgatory, Prayer to Dead, Confession for the forgiveness of sins to the Priests (not to God), Priests Prayer for forgiving sins at the time of Eucharist, No Salvation outside Roman Catholic Church.

    In this era, everyone says that he or she has been born-again in the Lord, maybe even dogs would claim that they are born again as long as they can express. So, we have to discern their salvation thru various fruits and the thoughts are the important factors to discern.

    Bible shows so many people are going to the presence of Lord and they would have had a certain conviction that they are saved, but they are denied by Lord saying "I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work inequity"
     
  14. zealouswest

    zealouswest New Member

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    To my understanding indulgences are just the forgiveness of some of the punishement due for certain sins already repented of.

    Indulgences were given for acts of charity or alms or for saying certain prayers etc. After the Tetzel bit, the church forbade alms as means to gain an indulgence. However indulgences were never "for sale" and the abuse was just that - and abuse. Luther knew that.

    If the Church has the autority to forgive men their sins or hold them (John 20:21), then this it would seem would be certainly in her power to grant too.

    That's my understanding of the matter and to me it doesn't seem unreasonable when understood from a Catholic Perspective.
     
  15. zealouswest

    zealouswest New Member

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    Then you would be mistaken. It was in existence well before then - and again the selling of indulgences was never allowed.

    Mass cards?

    "So that you will know that the son of man has authority on earth to forgive men their sins" says Christ. And then the Son of Man gives his aurhority to men in the aforementioned John 20:21.

    How is that non-biblical?

    Moreover the authority given to Christ from the Father which he gave to us is just that - the Fathers's authority. It would seem that going to a bishop or one they've ordained for confession should be valid, if one's bishops are valid.

    I believe this is a common misconception. "There is no salvation outside of the church" IS a Catholic teaching, but it's meaning isn't quite what you're taking it to mean.

    The Church is the Bride of Christ, and it is One. Salvation is being a member of that church. The Catholic Church, however, seems to recognize that not all "card-carrying members" are members in truth, but also that not all who don't have "a card" may yet still belong. This is perfectly just and, i believe, perfectly true.

    What?
     
  16. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Debby in Philly,

    .

    Debby, you said, 'I thought Purgatory was invented to sell indulgences to pay for the building of St. Peter's in Rome. No different than selling mass cards today.'
     
  17. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Tetzel said, 'As soon as coin in coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs.'

    Hey, there is a fund raiser! Is it anything similar to those who focus only on the 'Seed Faith Concept?'
     
  18. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Onesiphorus was dead, hince the greeting is to his house and not to him and his house. The prayer is for him on the Day.

    Yes. No. No.

    Purgatory is about a purging of the remains of sin which most obviously affect all of us - saved or otherwise - but which will not affect us in heaven.

    It's not an idea foreign to scripture or reasonable thought. You don't have to be Catholic to believe in Purgatory.
    </font>[/QUOTE]All of my sins were purged with Christ on the cross! I won't be going to any "holding places" when I die...just to Heaven!
     
  19. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    What about the Robber at the Cross?
    Does he go to Purgatory or did he go to Paradise directly?
     
  20. zealouswest

    zealouswest New Member

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    First off, there is a large body of evidence mounting that is showing Tetzel didn't do half the things that were claimed of him; and that rather uncritical protestants in the first years used him as a characture almost of legend, attributing much to him without merit.

    But even were he to be the person much of history thinks him to be...so what? "Selling" indulgences is not permissible. Giving indulgence for alms was. If a man abused the system, then that is the fault of the man.

    I'll do my best to represent what I do know about Catholics, but I do think that this "shot-gun" approach is a poor approach. Bring up your problems in new posts, not fifty in one.

    Do you ever sin? Will you still sin in heaven? Will there be ANY change in your disposition 5 minutes before death and 5 minutes after resurrection?

    THAT change is what the Catholics refer to as the place/state of purgation.

    Seeing as Jesus descended to the dead, sheol, not to heaven, i'd say that paradise in that part refers to Abraham's bosom. Jesus ascended later.

    But the robber at the cross does show that while the sacriments like baptism are normatively necessary, God Himself is not limited to them.
     
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