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Are Catholics saved???

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Jer2913, Apr 2, 2006.

  1. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    There is no such thing as a Catholic believer. Only ex-Catholic believers added to all other believers.

    And the reason is that they don't believe that faith alone in Christ alone saves. And that folks is the only Gospel.

    "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it (singular)is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." Rom. 1:16

    "That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." 1 Cor. 1:31
    </font>[/QUOTE]The statement that there is no such thing as a Catholic believer is a false statement that we can do without. Your verses have nothing to do with the issue. There is no one that thinks the Catholic system is more corrupt than I do, or unbiblical. But how you take that fact and make the leap to all Catholics are unsaved is not biblical.

    You have no idea if any or many Catholics have trusted Jesus as their Saviour.

    It took me quite a bit of time to get rid of that myth in my Sunday School class that I teach. I try to teach the Gospel and Bible the best I can, not some denomination, class man made Gospel.
     
  2. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Even those who spend their lives serving the church must recognize that faith alone will save them, the preacher of the papal household told Pope Benedict XVI and his closest aides.

    "Christianity does not start with that which man must do to save himself, but with what God has done to save him," Capuchin Father Raniero Cantalamessa said in his Dec. 16 Advent meditation.
    The preacher told the pope and top Vatican officials that they, like St. Paul, must avoid any temptation to think that the good works they have accomplished will guarantee their salvation.
    "Gratuitous justification through faith in Christ is the heart" of St. Paul's preaching "and it is a shame that this has been practically absent from the ordinary preaching of the church," he said.
    Father Cantalamessa said that the Protestant Reformation debate over the role of faith and works led the Catholic Church to focus so much on the need for the demonstration of faith in actions that it practically ignored the need for faith in the first place.
    St. Paul, in his Letter to the Philippians, warned believers of the "mortal danger" of putting their own good works between them and Christ, as if the works would save them, Father Cantalamessa said.
    Conversion to the fact that faith in Christ is the only means of salvation "is the conversion most needed by those who already are following Christ and have lived at the service of his church," the Capuchin said.
    "It is a special conversion that does not consist in abandoning the bad, but abandoning the good, in a way," he said. "It means detaching oneself from everything one has done, repeating to oneself, 'We are useless servants; we have done only what was required.'"
    Father Cantalamessa told a familiar Italian story about the shepherds near Bethlehem going to visit the newborn Jesus, each of them trying to outdo the others with the beauty of the gifts they offered.
    One poor shepherd had nothing and was ashamed.
    "Mary could not figure out how to accept all the gifts, since she was holding the baby in her arms," he said. "So, seeing the poor shepherd with his hands free, she handed Jesus to him."
    "Having his hands free was his fortune and it should be ours as well," Father Cantalamessa said.
    Copyright (c) 2005 Catholic News Service/U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops
    http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=18021
     
  3. Coov

    Coov New Member

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    I used to be Catholic... but then I got saved. [​IMG] LOL!!1
    Seriously though. I was raised catholic, now I am Baptist. God really has brought be a long way. I was never taught about salvation, why Christ died, that I am a sinner, the wage of sin is death.... all of the stuff that you have to have understanding of I never was taught in the 18 years I was Catholic. I learned prayers to Mary, learned about miracles, rituals, communion every service... but the substance and significance that Christ wants us to go out and share with the world was/is completely missing.

    Granted I did not care about church when I was that young. It was boring and did very little paying attention. I have met many catholics since proclaiming to be Christian, yet saw no real evidence of it in their lives.

    Now, I am in no way saying that catholics are not saved. I am saying that I don't think that the numbers would be very impressive. But hey.. on the other hand, I know that there are plenty of Baptist out there that are not saved either. ;)
     
  4. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    There is no such thing as a Catholic believer. Only ex-Catholic believers added to all other believers.

    And the reason is that they don't believe that faith alone in Christ alone saves. And that folks is the only Gospel.

    "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it (singular)is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." Rom. 1:16

    "That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." 1 Cor. 1:31
    </font>[/QUOTE]The statement that there is no such thing as a Catholic believer is a false statement that we can do without. Your verses have nothing to do with the issue. There is no one that thinks the Catholic system is more corrupt than I do, or unbiblical. But how you take that fact and make the leap to all Catholics are unsaved is not biblical.

    You have no idea if any or many Catholics have trusted Jesus as their Saviour.

    It took me quite a bit of time to get rid of that myth in my Sunday School class that I teach. I try to teach the Gospel and Bible the best I can, not some denomination, class man made Gospel.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I agree that I don't know how many Catholics have trusted Jesus as Lord and Savior. I know I am one. But we all all ex-Catholics.

    Read the Council of Trent. If any Catholics believe in salvation in Christ alone by faith alone they are defacto ex-Catholics according to the Catholic Church.
     
  5. Jer2913

    Jer2913 New Member

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    Ok, at least a few of you have said that it's nearly impossible to be saved and to be a Catholic, because from my understanding of what you guys have said, it's because of their theology, or how they view mass, Mary the mother of Jesus, and some other things. So what exactly is it with their theology that would mean that most of them probably are not saved. I really have know idea of what the mass or stuff like that is. I've known that they've had a pretty interesting theology, but what exactly are their views on things that makes it nearly impossible that they could be saved?

    Thanks for the info!
    Jer2913
     
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Catholic theology is salvation by works.
    When speaking to a Catholic remember that much of the terminology has been changed by them to fit their terminology.
    To be born again means to be baptized in the RCC.
    Thus the heresy of baptismal regeneration.
    They do not really believe that the death of Christ was sufficient payment for our sins; otherwise why would there be a need to suffer in purgatory to be further "purged" of our sins. Further payment must be made in purgatory. Christ's payment was not enough.
    The lack of faith in the sufficiency of the blood of Christ to pay the penalty for our sins is also seen in the Mass--the re-sacrifice of the body and blood of Christ--done thousands of times daily all over this world. If the death of Christ and the shedding of his blood was not sufficient to pay the penalty for our sins; how many times will Christ have to be re-sacrificed until it does become sufficient for our sins??
    Nowhere does the Bible speak of sacraments--that which becomes a means of grace. God bestows grace freely without any human agency or physical object such as water or the waters of baptism. God's grace is free. It doesn't magically and superstitiously run through sacramental waters of baptism.
    Thus we are saved by grace through faith. It is the gift of God, not of works.
    The Catholic Church says that we are saved through baptism, not by grace, but of works. They will deny that, but that is because they have redefined the words of grace and faith to fit their own theology. They have a false gospel; a gospel of works.

    One cannot believe in Catholic theology and be a Christian at the same time.
    DHK
     
  7. Coov

    Coov New Member

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    Catholic theology is not important even to most Catholics as far as what I have seen. The ritualistic nature is simply to make them feel as though that they are safe. Go through the motions at Church, then get right back to the world.

    ...but just like any theology... The saving Grace of Christ and an abiding relationship with Him is what creates a successful Christian, not theology.
     
  8. bapmom

    bapmom New Member

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    but Coov, you have to have at least a modicum of correct theology before you can have a relationship with Christ at all.
     
  9. Coov

    Coov New Member

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    Could you back that up with scripture please?
     
  10. jshurley04

    jshurley04 New Member

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    In large quantity the answer is no, Catholics are not and will not be saved. In individual numbers, yes Catholics will be saved. They will be in heaven, just not as numerous as they believe now.
     
  11. bapmom

    bapmom New Member

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    Coov,

    in order to back it up with Scripture Id have to show you theology........are you sure?

    Alright, editing to minimize the sarcasm.....

    One must believe that Jesus is the Christ, the begotten Son of God, and that one has no chance of reconciling himself to God except through Jesus Christ and His death AND resurrection.
     
  12. Coov

    Coov New Member

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    I guess I need to just elaborate just a bit. I do not stand on theology even though it is inevitable that I follow some sort of theology one way or the other. I stand on the Truth of Christ through the Word of God and the teachings of the Holy Spirit.

    There is so much depth to create theology for Christians who are actually encouraged to read the Bible, as Catholics are not. Catholics, for the most part, are just told what to do, memorize, say, etc... they are told what to think rather than be led by the Holy Spirit and be enlightened to the Truths of God through His Word.
     
  13. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    I would recommend that you read the book of Galatians. Some samples that put Catholicism in Satan's corner:

    "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." 1:6-8

    Catholics have "another Gospel" (2 Cor. 11:1-4). This epistle was written to warn about the Jews that told the Galatians that they need Jesus + circumcision + keeping the Law to be saved.

    Catholics teach that you must keep the Law (Commandments), + receive the sacraments (just like circumcision, and the Mass and receiving the Eucharist is considered to be efficacious toward meriting salvation. They also have the gall to mention Meritorious Works.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10202b.htm

    http://www.cts.org.au/1999/justificationandsalvation.htm

    http://www.iprimus.ca/~bumblebee/ecclesia/solafide.htm

    They don't believe Hebrews 10:10-12. They believe this nonsense instead about their blasphemous Mass:

    http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/link/e-litur.html

    More from Galatians:

    "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
    This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" 3:1-3

    Catholics would answer 'yes' to those last two questions. But the Bible says no. Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 4:4-5; Titus 3:5, etc.

    "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
    A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump." 5:4,9

    Did you catch that last verse? You can't add anything to the Gospel or you end up with "another Gospel". That is why Catholics that remain practicing Catholic can in no way get to heaven. And their Purgatory will be permanent.
     
  14. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    All you have done with your scripture is prove the RCC is unbiblical. I think we already knew that. You have no idea if any Catholics are saved or not. You have a different definition that your last post, now you say practicing Catholics. I sure wish you could teach me how to look into the human heart as you seem to claim you can. I could make a fortune.

    Thank goodness this is only a board, and not the Sunday School class I teach. Statements are like "All catholics are going to hell" will never see the light of day in my class.
     
  15. bapmom

    bapmom New Member

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    but no one said "All catholics are going to hell".

    If a person believes as the Catholic church teaches than they are believing false doctrine and it is not a doctrine which can save a person. Also, if a person is apathetic to their catholic church, not caring what they teach but remaining in ignorance of what the Bible actually says, than they are just as lost as any completely unchurched person.

    I believe we have all agreed here that it is not what church you belong to that determines your salvation. It IS your belief in Christ.
     
  16. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf New Member

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    Catholics teach that salvation is through another name- Mary. Acts 4:12

    They teach another gospel- that of works- Gal. 1:6-9, Eph. 2:8,9

    They teach another Jesus- one who is constantly being sacrificed over and over again- 1 Timothy 2:5 and Hebrews 9:24-28
     
  17. Coov

    Coov New Member

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    Sorry, JackRUS. I was talking to bapmom about her previous statement. Sorry for the confusion.
     
  18. Shiloh

    Shiloh New Member

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    I believe a more correct question would have to be...Can a Catholic get saved and remain in the Catholic church?
     
  19. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    As long as they firmly believe in Purgatory, they are believing that they go to Purgatory first,where they don't know how many million years they have to spend. Their destiny is depending on the prayers by other human beings, on the human efforts by the fragile human natures.
    They are more miserable than the Robber at the Cross who went to Paradise directly.

    Roman Catholic firmly believe that their churches as found on Peter, even though Peter didn't know about Roman Catholic, which denies strongly that their churches are founded on Jesus Christ, the solid Rock.
     
  20. AF Guy N Paradise

    AF Guy N Paradise Active Member
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    Here is an interesting devotional on this very topic from Bill Kellar:

    DAILY DEVOTIONAL THURSDAY APRIL 6, 2006
    ( John 17:21, 2 Timothy 3:16, Ephesians 2:8,9, 1 Corinthians 1:10 )

    ***CHANGE IN PLANS! The Holy Spirit has led me share the Devotional on the Roman Catholic Church today instead of Friday. God wanted me to take another 24 hours to pray and let some events unfold today before I bring you the powerful message tomorrow on how satan will attack you where it hurts you the most, does not fight fair, and is out to destroy anyone serving the Lord. Don't miss the Friday Devotional for a very personal look at how satan comes after God's children. Thank you to all those who have been praying for me the past few days and please continue as the battle is getting fierce, but we know the "battle is the Lord's!"

    ***THIS DEVOTIONAL is dedicated to my mother who went to be with the Lord in December of 1998. Today would have been her 79th birthday. It was my mother who laid the foundation of faith in my life, a foundation that sustained me in my darkest moments and gave me the desire to make my life count for Christ. Like many of you, it was the prayers of my mother that are responsible for me serving the Lord today.


    Is Pope Paul II in Heaven? Without a doubt one of the things I am most grateful for is how God has used Liveprayer to bring unity to the badly divided Body of Christ. Over 1/3 of those who receive the Daily Devotional each day are not Christians. Of the 2/3 who are, they are equally divided among those who go to Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Pentecostal, Independent, and Catholic Churches. Ever since I started this ministry in 1992, one of my greatest "big picture" goals was to help bring the Body of Christ together as one as our Lord prayed in John 17 just hours before going to the cross. Dividing the Body is something satan has been doing since the first church in the Book of Acts and what Paul warned about quite often in his letters to the churches.

    I purposely stayed away from any denominational affiliation, having my ministry credentials with an independent group of ministers. I also kept this ministry from any denominational affiliations so that nobody could try and label it as "Baptist," even though I got my formal theological training at a Baptist Seminary, or "Methodist," even though I was raised and saved in the United Methodist Church, or "Pentecostal," even though I believe in the gifts of the Spirit. Without having a "label," during my first three years I was able to preach in over 500 churches of every denomination, racial and ethnic makeup, all over the country.

    You see, my message then and my message now has really never changed. It is a universal message that plays to people in and out of the church. "If you don't know Jesus by faith you need to make the decision for Him today. If you do know the Lord, you need to fully surrender your life and allow Him to use you. No matter what problems you may be facing in your life today, Jesus is the answer!" As I have shared with you often, when you die, there will be only two lines in Heaven, There won't be a line for Whites and one for Blacks. There won't be a line for Catholics and one for Protestants. There will be one line for those who know Jesus Christ as their Savior by faith, and one for those who do not!

    In dealing with a worldwide audience of over 2.2 million people every day, I am VERY well aware of the incredible divisions there are in Christ's Body. Perhaps no division is as great as the one between Catholics and non-Catholics. I deal with this issue daily in individual cases but have never addressed it in the Daily Devotional. I want you to pray, open your heart to the words I am going to share with you, and hear the voice of God speaking to you today as I do my best to bring balance and clarity to this area of division within the Body of Christ.

    Let me start right away and say that those non-Catholics who think the Roman Catholic Church is a cult and anyone who is part of that church is going to hell, could not be more wrong. I am very aware of those who teach this message of hate and division, and they should be ashamed of themselves and will one day answer to God. On the other side, however, those Catholics who think that any non-Catholic has denied the faith and will go to hell for not being part of the Roman Catholic Church is just as wrong. Please, I am NOT interested in receiving your dissertations, your cut and paste emails from websites that try and support EITHER of these extreme positions so don't send them!

    The fact is, the Roman Catholic Church has a long and well-documented history. However, the reality is, it is simply a denomination or group of churches, no different than a group of Southern Baptist, United Methodist, or Assemblies of God Churches. Each group of churches or denomination has their own rich heritage, traditions, and leaders. The critical point is that while each group of churches or denominations have their own unique differences in regard to different doctrinal issues, what makes them CHRISTIAN churches is the foundational element of the Christian faith. Who Jesus Christ is, that salvation is through faith in Christ alone, and the authority of God's inspired, inerrant Word.

    THE ONE TRUE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST IS NOT A GROUP OF CHURCHES OR A DENOMINATION OR A BUILDING, IT IS MADE UP OF EVERY PERSON WHO HAS ACCEPTED JESUS CHRIST INTO THEIR HEARTS AND LIVES BY FAITH.

    Is the Pope in Heaven? There is only ONE WAY to get to Heaven and that is by putting your faith and trust in Jesus Christ. My personal opinion is that he is. Not because he was the Pope, but because of His faith in Jesus Christ. You see, the moment you die, who you were in this life isn't important. As the old adage goes, it is Who you know! The only thing that matters the moment you die is, DO YOU KNOW JESUS AS YOUR SAVIOR BY FAITH. God will reward us for our faithfulness in serving Him during our life, but what we do during our life can't get us to Heaven, only faith in Jesus Christ will get us into Heaven!

    Now, let me address some of the issues about the Roman Catholic Church that have led many who know the Lord to leave that church and has caused much of the division with non-Catholics. 3 of the 700+ retired ministers who serve the Lord by helping me each day respond to the over 40,000 emails that we receive are Roman Catholic Priests. Over my years of ministry, I have personally preached in over 1/2 dozen Catholic Churches (and I can assure you that I shared the unadulterated truth of the Gospel and gave an altar call as I do whenever I preach in public), and the best we can tell, approx. 200,000 of the 2.2 million plus subscribers to the Daily Devotional are Catholics. I have read and studied the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church and as a student of church history am very well aware of what the Catholic Church teaches.

    The problem most non-Catholics have with the Catholic Church is what I call their non-Biblical traditions, which by the way, ALL groups of churches or denominations have. I don't have the time to go through a complete list but the main ones are how they deal with the mother of Jesus, Mary. She was a virgin when she was immaculately conceived by the Holy Spirit, however, she was a person of flesh and blood like you and I and was born with sin just like you and I were. She also had other children as we know from the Scriptures. There is nothing wrong with honoring her for the incredible role God chose her to play in her life, but she is NOT a deity and praying to her is as meaningless as it is to pray to any other person who is dead (including those the Catholic Church has deemed to be "saints") or alive. There is only ONE person we pray to and that is Jesus.

    Another big issue in the Catholic Church is Communion. The tradition of the Catholic Church is that the wafer representing the body of our Lord and the wine representing His blood literally becomes the body and blood of Christ. That is a very real theological argument that Scripture does not support, but I don't see that as an area for major contention. The Bible exhorts us to take Communion often in remembrance of the sacrifice of our Lord and there are those who believe based on certain verses it becomes the literal body and blood of Christ. Another issue that I don't think is that important is confessing your sins to a Priest. The Bible tells us to confess our sins one to another, so there is nothing wrong if it is your Priest you choose to do that with. However, please understand that NO MAN, only Jesus can forgive you of your sins since it was only Jesus who died for your sins.

    Another issue that is critical to talk about is salvation. The teaching of the Catholic Church clearly is that salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ alone. However, there are some who teach in error (just like some non-Catholic churches do) that you can do enough good works to earn your way into Heaven which is clearly refuted by Ephesians 2:8,9. Those who teach this point to the passage in James that "faith without works is dead." The fact is that passage was written to people who were already saved. The Bible clearly teaches that a person who is truly saved will have "fruit" or good works follow them. These good works do not save them but flow from their salvation.

    Also, it needs to be addressed that many Catholics think that they were the "first church." Actually, the first church is well documented in the Book of Acts and was in Jerusalem, not Rome. There was quite a network of churches in that part of the world before there was any church at Rome, and those early churches in the city of Rome were offshoots of those other various churches who came to plant churches there. It was several hundred years later, with many well established churches all over that part of the world before what we know as the Romans Catholic Church really emerged.

    Lastly is the Bible. The Catholic Bible has 6 historical books known as the Apocrypha that deal with those 400 years from the end of Malachi, the end of the Old Testament, to the start of the New Testament. These books were never found to be inspired or inerrant and thus are not part of the 66 books we call the Bible. The Bible is God's inspired, inerrant Word, representing Absolute Truth and our final authority in all matters. It, and it alone is our authority and overrides any teachings or traditions of man.

    Of course, there are many other non-Biblical traditions like purgatory and numerous others. Having said all of that, let me be clear. The Roman Catholic Church is a Christian Church and NOT a cult since the core teachings of the Church are salvation by faith in Jesus Christ alone and the Bible as God's Word. Since the 1970's, there has been a very active and growing Charismatic group within the Roman Catholic Church that is as Pentecostal as any Pentecostal Church you will ever attend. Also, in the past 10 years, there is a growing and strong evangelical movement within the Catholic Church. They are working within the Church to bring back a greater emphasis on the Word of God and on the message of salvation and less emphasis on the traditions of the Catholic Church.

    Many people who know Christ as their Savior by faith have chosen to stay in the Catholic Church. They are just as saved, love the Lord, and honor His Word as much as anyone who attends a non-Catholic Church. Are there people in the Catholic Church who aren't saved? Of course! Just like there are people in any church who are not saved. My friend, your Methodist Church can't save you, your Baptist Church can't save you, your Pentecostal Church can't save you, only faith in Jesus Christ can save you! Being baptized can't save you, the faith of your parents can't save you, no amount of good works can save you, ONLY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST CAN SAVE YOU!!!

    I love you and care about you so much. I watch daily as satan works to divide the Body of Christ, and perhaps there is no division as great as the one between Catholics and non-Catholics. Martin Luther's break with the Catholic Church took place at a time when the Catholic Church was more of a political entity than a spiritual one. Luther wanted to get back to the foundation of the faith, that being salvation is through God's grace and our faith alone (Ephesians 2:8,9), or sola fides, and the authority of God's Word, or sola scriptura. Regardless of the manmade, non-Biblical traditions of the Catholic Church, we are bonded by the shed blood of Jesus Christ since what makes us a Christian is not the name of the building we choose to worship in, but our faith in Christ.

    I will continue to do my part in helping to bring unity to the Body of Christ by keeping people focused on the fact our real enemy is satan, not each other. The universal message of the Bible is that God loves each of us so much, and desires to have a personal and intimate relationship with us now and for all of eternity. However, it is our sin that is separating us from God, and it is only faith in His Son Jesus Christ that can wash our sins away and reconcile us to a holy God. Even though we may disagree on some doctrinal issues, on how a worship service is conducted, or any number of other issues, let us never forget that those who know Jesus Christ by faith will be spending all of eternity together so we better start learning how to live with our brothers and sisters in Christ now.

    Let us pray today for Pope Benedict XVI who leads that great church's 1.1 billion members worldwide. I have confided in some of my Catholic friends that one of my great wishes is to be Pope for a day. I would organize a 24-hour telethon to be aired around the world. It would be a special telethon since we would not be raising money, but saving souls. It would be 24 hours of non-stop soulwining and with the power of the Papacy, I believe it would be the greatest harvest of souls the world has ever seen. Let us pray that that Pope Benedict XVI will not only have a heart for the hurting but also the lost, and the boldness to stand and proclaim that Jesus Christ is "the way, the truth and the life and that no one comes to the Father except through Him!"


    In his love and service,
    Your friend and brother in Christ,
    Bill Keller


    Bill Keller Ministries.
    All rights reserved

    [ April 07, 2006, 12:48 AM: Message edited by: DHK ]
     
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