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Are Catholics saved???

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Jer2913, Apr 2, 2006.

  1. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    I hope Bill Keller pray for Pope Benedict 16 that the Pope should declare Purgatory is wrong, Sacrifice at Mass is wrong, Inquisition was wrong, Papacy is wrong ! instead Sola Fide !
     
  2. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    RE: two posts back--April update... Did not know we could solicit donations on this board. Is that allowed?

    Bro. James
     
  3. AF Guy N Paradise

    AF Guy N Paradise Active Member
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    I just cut and paste his daily devotional. I guess I should have edited the first part about the donations, but it won't let me edit it any longer...
     
  4. Shiloh

    Shiloh New Member

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    Bill Keller a real unspiritual nut case!
     
  5. AF Guy N Paradise

    AF Guy N Paradise Active Member
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    Please explain how you came to this conclusion...
     
  6. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    Hopefully there are no Catholics in your class.

    And hopefully you will never teach on the book of Galatians.

    And Hopefully you believe and teach that there is only one Gospel and not several.

    "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it (singular) is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." Rom. 1:16

    BTW, I was differentiating between practicing Catholics and ex-Catholics only.

    And I was wondering...

    Would you teach that all practicing Muslims are going to hell?

    How about all practicing Hindus?

    How about all Jews?

    And hopefully you will some day teach in your class that religions that are unbiblical have no hope of salvation. But I doubt if you would want to offend anyone with that bad news. [​IMG]

    Missing heaven by a lot or a little is still a miss. And Catholicism misses the mark.

    BTW, I can guarantee you that if you ask any Catholic including the pope if they are (present tense) saved, they will all say either no, or I don't know. Rom. 8:16. In fact they are emphatic on that teaching. So why are you arguing for them against their own doctrine?

    http://www.cts.org.au/1999/justificationandsalvation.htm

    [ April 07, 2006, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: JackRUS ]
     
  7. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    Sorry, JackRUS. I was talking to bapmom about her previous statement. Sorry for the confusion.
    </font>[/QUOTE]There was no confusion Coov. But I couldn't resist.
     
  8. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    Please explain how you came to this conclusion... </font>[/QUOTE]I am wondering how he came up with the false notion that all of the various Christian denominations make up the body of Christ? Only converted born again believers make up the body of Christ no matter what the denomination.

    Ask any missionary who encounters the Catholic church in the field. They are always enemies of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and speak out against it. I have personally heard this from from several missionaries around the world.

    Pope John Paul II was very upset at the true conversions in Latin American and spoke against what pastors are doing there. That is a fact.
     
  9. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    Please explain how you came to this conclusion... </font>[/QUOTE]I don't know about Shiloh, but I came to the same conclusion by reading your post.
     
  10. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    Here is something for the "I'm O.K., you're O.K." crowd:

    "But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the (again, singular) gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts."

    Try that instead of popularity please.
     
  11. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    JackRRus,
    Tell ya what, I'll teach my class as the Holy Spirit without the unbiblical bigotry you post. How I teach is between me and God. Since I am going to guess that I have been teaching longer than you have been alive, and since the local church of which I am a member is one of the most conservative there is, I am sure someone would have let me know if something was amiss how I feel about the subject. I have taught the book of Galations several times thank you. I would like to know the Scripture in the Bible where is says you know the heart of all Catholics.

    And as far as you comparing Muslims all being lost and Catholics, do Muslims say Jesus is the Son of God? I cant figure if you are some kind of plant, or just enjoy unbiblical arguements, but please take it somewhere else.
     
  12. UnchartedSpirit

    UnchartedSpirit New Member

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    I believe the Catholoics are saved because they do have salvation thorough Jesus christ in thier message, although they assign other people as ones who they can trust in as well. Several other cultures have done the same. Several "native" religion have added Jesus next to their list of Dieties of worship. Now it's all up to Jesus to convict them that he's the only answer. But that dosen't mean they arn't saved until then.
     
  13. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    saturneptune
    Funny, but you don't sound like you're filled with the Holy Spirit after reading your last post. I checked in Galatians 5:22-23.

    And BTW, I'm 3 years older than you being born in 1949, so I doubt if you have been taching longer than I've been alive.

    I would suggest that since I was raised a Catholic and been studying the subject, well, longer than you've been alive, that I know more about Catholicism than you do. But I could be wrong.

    Anyway, here are some web sites that I have studied on the subject that you can read to try to catch up on me a little:


    http://www.jude3.net/RCIDX.HTM
    http://www.cwrc-rz.org/
    http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/Catholicism/welcome.html
    http://www.angelfire.com/ky/dodone/Complete.html
    http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2594/
    http://www.gty.org/~phil/bookmark/cath.htm Catholic sites and bad theology in general
    http://www.newadvent.org/
     
  14. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Well Jack, not only do you know the heart of all Catholics and their state of salvation, you know if I am filled with the Holy Spirit at the moment. I made the remark about teaching longer than you based on how I perceived your age based on your remarks. Really, not in the habit of looking at profiles.

    Yes, I am well aware of the fruits of the Holy Spirit, but also aware that I have no tolerence of unbiblical myths.

    I am sure you know more about catholic than I do or that I care to know. It is unbiblical, as I have stated in several posts. I do not believe someone who is wrapped up in their theology is saved in all likelihood. What you dont get, and for the life of me I do not understand since you claim you were catholic, is how you get from the church being apostate, to all catholics being lost.

    So answer me this, since you claim the percent of catholics going to hell is 100, what is the percentage of Baptists going to hell?
     
  15. Joshua2415

    Joshua2415 New Member

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    It's easy to pull Bible verses left and right out of context to support our views. In fact, by twisting the context enough, you can make the Bible say there is no God. We all know that sort of twisting is an extreme example, but it is easy to do with more subtle examples, such as "proving" it is possible to fall from grace. The human ego likes to think that the "group" we belong to is the most correct, be it political party, religious denomination, or even race, and an extreme form of this ego is believing that only your group is correct and all others are entirely wrong. In the case of Christianity versus other religions, this would be one of the few places this applies since the Bible clearly states that Jesus is the only way to salvation ("I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.") However, within Christianity itself, making this assumption is an ego trip at best and blasphemy of God at worst. Who are we as humans to question the wisdom of God? Are we the ones who dictate salvation? Are we telling God who he can save and who he can send to hell? As Paul said so often, "Certainly not!"

    I will agree Catholic dogma is not conducive to salvation by grace. This is why the Reformation occured in the first place. This can entail a host of issues, such as how difficult is it to be saved by being raised Catholic, or if it's even possible to become saved through Catholic dogma. However, I would put to anyone here that most Catholics love God and love Jesus Christ as much as any Baptist, and many of them have found the saving grace of Jesus Christ in their lives.

    The final point is that no one can play God, especially not with salvation. God saves and God saves alone. We do not save ourselves, and we cannot say who is saved and who is not. We can look at external evidence, compare it with Scripture and try to make a reasonable assumption, but we can never know. We can't check out the Book of Life from the library and see if their name is in it. We might assume someone is lost, only to find them standing behind us at the gates of heaven, when they were simply going through a hard time in their lives. We might wonder where the preacher is when we get to heaven and he's nowhere to be found. No one knows. No one can ever know. It is folly to make assumptions about salvation when it comes to who gets it and who does not. In fact, none of us deserve salvation--not even Baptists. We all deserve hell. God in his grace chose to save.
     
  16. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    Baptists hear the Gospel if they are in a well balanced church.

    "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and
    also to the Greek." Rom. 1:16

    But not all respond to it. So the percentage varies. But you will find saved folks in most Baptist churches. I doubt though that any Baptist church with over 50 people attending has a 100% count of converted Christians.

    I can guarantee you that Catholics never hear the Gospel in their church.

    And don't have to know the heart of Catholics. I only have to know their theology. They believe in "another Gospel", and most likely "another Jesus" as well. Here is a sample of what a famous bishop in the Catholic Church wrote a while back. See if you think they believe in the same Jesus and Gospel as we do:

    "This from Alphonsus de Liguori's "Glories of Mary": [He was a Catholic bishop in the 18th century and a canonized saint]. Published in 1750, it has been the most celebrated Marian devotional work in the Catholic Church with over 800 editions in many languages.

    "With reason does an ancient writer call her [Mary] "the only hope of sinners", for by her help alone can we hope for the remission of sins. (pg 83) Isa. 43:8-11, Acts 4:12

    ”He fails and is lost who has not recourse to Mary.” (pg 94).

    ”Shall we scruple to ask her to save us, when the way of salvation is open to none otherwise than through Mary?” (pg 169)

    "At the command of Mary all obey - even God." St. Bernardine [Catholic canonized saint] fears not to utter this sentence; meaning, indeed, to say that God grants the prayers of Mary as if they were commands...Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent; though of course, it is always true that where the Son is omnipotent by nature, the Mother is only by grace. (Pg 180-82)

    "There is no doubt, (St. Bernardine adds) that Jesus Christ is the only mediator of justice between men and God; [the bad, harsh one] but because men acknowledge and fear the divine Majesty, which is in him as God, for this reason it was necessary to assign us another advocate, [don't miss that] to whom we might have recourse with less fear and more confidence, [more confidence?!] and this advocate is Mary, than whom we cannot find one more powerful with his divine majesty, or one more merciful [Rom. 9:15] towards ourselves...A mediator, then was needed with the [mean] mediator himself." (Pg. 195-96)

    "Be comforted then, O you who fear," will I [also] say with St. Thomas of Villanova [another lost Catholic saint]: "breath freely and take courage, O wretched sinners; this great Virgin, who is the mother of your God and judge, [again, the mean one] is also the advocate of the whole human race; fit for this office, for she can do what she wills with God; most wise, for she knows all the ways of appeasing him; universal, for she welcomes all, and refuses to defend no one." (Pg. 198). So much for Luke 13:2-5 and John 12:48.

    St. Anselm, to increase our confidence, adds, that "when we have recourse to this divine Mother, only we may be sure of her protection, but that often we shall be heard more quickly, and be thus preserved, if we have recourse to Mary and call on her holy name [Acts 4:12; Rom. 10:13] , than we should if we call on the name of Jesus our Saviour," and the reason he gives for it is, "that to Jesus as a judge it belongs to punish; BUT MERCY ALONE BELONGS TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN as a patroness." (Pg. 136-37) Isa. 55:1-9; PS. 31, Rom. 9:15.

    If God is angry with a sinner, and Mary takes him under her protection, she withholds the avenging arm of her Son, and saves him. (Pg. 124). Ex. 34:5-7."

    Unlike us, Catholics are required to adhere to the interpretations of Scripture as dictated by their Magisterium in the Vatican. This now condemned fellow was a part of the Magisterium in his day.

    "He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad." Mt. 12:30

    I happy to see that you have no tolerance for unbiblical myths. Neither do I, and neither does Jesus Christ. Roman Catholicism is a Christian myth.
     
  17. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    Joshua2415.

    You wrote:
    But do they have the real Jesus? Read the above quotes and yourself that. Mt. 7:22-23.

    And if you think that I took Scripture out of context, please show me where.

    And you missed the part from Gal. 5:4 that I was pointing out. It was not the part about falling from grace. It was the part about being justified by the Law. Catholic do believe that they have to keep the Commandments (and receive various sacraments) in order to be saved.

    http://www.cts.org.au/1999/justificationandsalvation.htm
    http://www.iprimus.ca/~bumblebee/ecclesia/solafide.htm
    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13295a.htm#II

    This flies in the face of the Gospel, and is an insult to the Lord Jesus and His finished work on the cross. That is why they are not saved.

    The one true Gospel is not "Gee, I think that I will decide to love Jesus today."

    It is believeing on the Lord Jesus Christ, and His finished work on the cross and His Resurrection to defeat death. Nothing added; hence Gal. 5:5,9; 3:1-4.

    "For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
    For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves
    unto the righteousness of God.
    For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.' Romans 10:2-4

    It has nothing to do with ego. It has everything to do with Scripture.

    Most of my family and friends are Catholics, so I have no reason to exercise my ego concerning this serious matter. It would be nice if you were right about the possibility of Catholics being saved. But Jesus said the truth would set you free.
     
  18. bapmom

    bapmom New Member

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    Uncharted,

    you need to look at what they say about Jesus Christ. Their "salvation through Jesus Christ" is obtained through regular participation in the Mass. The many problems with that religious system are already being posted here....but please, do not just sit back and say that Catholics are saved just because they talk about Jesus. There are real problems with what they are being taught, and each of them needs to be confronted with the true Gospel.

    I do believe that some Catholics are saved, but I think it is extremely hard for them to find correct Biblical doctrine if they are truly steeped in Catholic doctrine.
     
  19. Askjo

    Askjo New Member

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    Do you think that Catholic is a cult?
     
  20. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    The Bible says that there is no other gospel than that of Jesus Christ, and if someone preaches another gospel (Maryology), then let them be accursed. Though I believe that there are many who are in the catholic church that are saved, I don't believe for an instant that the RCC or any sect thereof of Catholic preaches salvation through Jesus Christ.

    I have a step uncle whom is Catholic, and despite his good works (he believes that will help get him into Heaven) and partaking of the sacraments, I don't believe that he is going to Heaven. I believe many that are in the Catholic church who ARE saved, have come from other denominations that do preach salvation correctly and have been abused, let down, hurt and frustrated by these other denominations and have fled to the Catholic church for refuge. I've seen it happen many a time.
     
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