Are Non-Christians Saved?

Alright, you had me confused. I didn't know you had two name-sakes.

I gave my explanation. Basically you are saying you don't accept Biblical expostion. I think you are saying this as a cop out. You can't refute what I have said, how I have explained the verse. So you come out with this lame excuse. Typical.
"All that ever came before me were thieves and robbers." (false religions and false religious leaders).

John 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
They are known by Christ, not by Allah, Buddha, Vishnu, or any other God.
Christ is the only Way. One cannot remain a Muslim and a Christian at the same time. He must choose one way or the other. There is only one Way to heaven, and that is through the shed blood of Christ which all other relgions deny.

There is a fine line betwen saying all will be saved, and those of all other religions can be saved and maintain their pagan religion at the same time. Both are a from of universalism as far as I am concerned.
Baptists are all going to Hell as far as the Council of Trent has decreed, which council has never been rescinded.

Wherein is the falsehood? Go back and see what I read:
"The RCC teaches that Muslims are saved." That is true.
Here is the Catechism's statement on it:

A heretical statement that states in no uncertain terms that Muslims are saved, not can be, but are saved.

Orthodox Christianity teaches that salvation is through Christ alone. You are teaching that others from other religions like Islam are saved. But then the RCC is not orthodox in its doctrines.

So-called Christians. But don't change the subject. You are not following my point. You adamantly say that the RCC does not beleive that Baptists are not saved and will not go to Hell. History tells a different story. They killed Baptists because they were heretics and beleived they were going to Hell.
Now you are telling a different story--that the Catholic Church is all inclusive. Muslims are saved (even though there were wicked crusades against them in order to exterminate them). Baptists are saved (though they were persecuted to the death). People from other religions can be saved and remain in their own pagan religions, though history tells different. (See the history of St. Francis Xavier and the East Indians at Goa, and the bloodshed that went on there).
The Catholic Church is very contradictory. It changes to suit its own purposes.

 

The Bible says that Christ is the only way. Does the Bible also say that the only way anyone can be saved is by conscious subscription to the notion that Christianity is valid, IOW, by being a Christian? Only Christ saves, but does Christ only save those who subscribe to Christianity per se? And what about those who are professing Christians of whom Christ will one day say "depart from me... I never knew ye." And WHAT ABOUT THOSE WHO DIE IN INFANCY? I place this in caps because you seem to be avoiding answering it...

To say that "Certainly God can save who He will" followed immediately by "There is no such thing as a saved Muslim, as there is no such thing as a saved Hindu, etc." makes no sense. Can God save who He will or not?

 

Yes. "I am the way the truth and the life...

Yes

Read the context. It is speaking of false prophets, false teachers, wolves in sheep's clothing. These are unbelievers pretending to believers. In truth it sounds very much like many caught up in the Charismatic movement today (like Benny Hinn), but that is just my opinion.

Stick to the topic of the thread. If you want to start a thread on "Will infants go to heaven (along with the mentally challenged) then do so. I really don't find that as relevant here. But I am not a hyper-Calvinist; in fact I am not a Calvinist at all.

The Bible doesn't contradict itself, and God does not go against His Word, neither His nature. To say that God can do anything He wants to do is not true. God cannot lie. He says so in His Word. It is impossible for Him to lie; it is impossible for Him to do anything that is against His nature. Part of that nature is going against His promises that are written in His Word. He has promised that salvation is through Christ. It is an insult to Christ to reject Him, and try to enter into heaven some other way. The only way to heaven is through Christ.

 

Barbarian observes:
You added "Religion" to it, which was not there, and changed the meaning. This is something you should never do.

Then don't present it as God's Word.

Barbarian observes:
True. You just aren't pleased who He will let though that door.

(continues to limit who God can save)

Barbarian explains how Christianity differs from universalism:
No, universalism says all are saved. Christianity says God can save anyone, even non-Christians. I gather by now, you admit that it’s a lie to say that RCC says that Baptists are going to hell.

You, for example, can be saved, even if you keep your false doctrines.

Reality is not subject to your desires.

As you learned, that is a lie. But more than one person here has explained to you the difference between "catholic" (all christians) and Roman Catholic (one particular sect of Christians). Even more to the point, you have read the specific doctrine from the Vatican that says all Christians can be saved.


Yehren on the claim that RCC says all will be saved:
Another falsehood. We admit that they can be saved.

You changed "can" to "will." For obvious reasons. Shame on you.

Here is the Catechism's statement on it:

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
Note that only those who actually seek and love God are saved. Like anyone else.

You know better, but for some reason, suppose that we will be fooled. Not a good idea.


Barbarian observes:
Nope. Orthodox Christianity. How sad that you cannot be satisfied with salvation, unless you can deny it to others.

But you aren't satisfied with that. You want to deny that God can save anyone.

No, everyone here sees that I said they can be saved. What do you think others here think when they see you repeatedly misrepresent what I've corrected you on before?

(DHK mentions that Catholics have killed Protestants)
Yehren observes:
And Protestants murdered Catholics and each other. It does not change the truth.

If you didn't want to talk about it, you shouldn't have brought it up.

That, as you learned, is the official doctrine of the RCC. You might wish it was otherwise, but that's what it is.

Well, I imagine blacks don't think you want them to be slaves, either. History isn't necessarily a guide to what a church thinks today.

And Protestants killed Catholics and other Protestants for the same reasons. Especially in this country, there are plenty of evils to go around as far as racism, and hatred are concerned. Do you really want to get into that, or shall we stay with what the RCC actually teaches?

Nope. I'm just pointing out that the RCC says that salvation is not limited to Roman Catholics. You don't want them to say this, so you deny it. I can't figure out why it's so important to you that they don't accept other Christians.

I think you're exaggerating here. The crusades were at least well-intentioned.

I'm aware that they have apologized for support of slavery, and that very Christian act is sufficient for me to put the issue aside.

History won't tell you who is saved. That is up to God and no one else.

You still seem to have trouble decideing whether you want the RCC to condemn everyone else to hell, or to say that everyone is saved. In fact, neither is true.

Barbarian observes:
You seem to have two diametrically opposed delusions. On one hand, you keep insisting that the Catholic Church says all non-Catholics are damned to hell, On the other hand, you keep arguing that they say all will be saved. Both, of course, are falsehoods.

You've already learned otherwise, but you can't bring yourself to admit the truth.

Quote:
As you learned, that is a lie.

Sounds like a testable claim. Show me where Vatican II documents say one has to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church to be saved.

:
Barbarian observes:
As you learned earlier, you are conflating “catholic” (meaning those belonging to His church, with the Roman Catholic church, which is only a fraction of all the world’s Christians. This is why even Protestants mention the “holy catholic church.”

I've heard it in a lot of different Protestant churches.

Christians know what it means and the diference between catholic and RCC.

Sorry, not credible. Even protestants use the phrase and know what it means.


Barbarian observes:
Nice try, but it’s a very transparent attempt to deceive. You have seen a firm statement from the Vatican saying that other Christians are also saved, and even an admission that God can save non-Christians
Quote:
You conflate catholic, with Roman Catholic. Note that not one of your statements said that you had to belong to the Roman Catholic church. But the statement from Vatican II did say that all Christians were open to salvation, and even nonChristians could be saved.
Quote:
Barbarian observes:
I suppose you've switched over to the "only Roman Catholics can be saved" delusion, now.
(assertion that Barbarian says Muslims are saved)
Quote:

Barbarian chuckles:
I said that God could save them. Since you also alter God’s word, I guess I’m in good company.

It says they can be saved.

I cited it to you, but you won't accept what it says, because you have an emotional need to be condemned by Roman Catholics. How sad. When you learn to love God more than you hate other Christians, you will find peace.

 

Are non-christians saved?

What do you think is Christ procclaimed for?

 

Quoting:
"The RCC teaches that Muslims are saved." That is true.
Here is the Catechism's statement on it:

Quote:
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
GE:
Hell, (excuse me!) but I never thought it possible!

 

So, according to the RCC one is saved as long as he believes in God as Creator? That makes Jesus obsolete. This here protagonist must be a disciple of Knitters!

 

That IS the topic of this thread. The question is whether those who have not had opportunity to hear the gospel preached may be saved, is it not? YOU have deflected that question with attacks on everyone from Catholics to Muslims. The question is not whether other religions are valid... the question is whether those who are not Christians can be saved!

 

Amity:

"Allah is 'the God of Abraham' within Islam, the very same one."

Muslims and Islam go to the Father through 'the prophet'. Jesus said though, nobody gets to the Father but through Him. So Jesus is made a liar, and Christians must serve a false god. But when the argument is reversed, Christians are unchristian and reveal a spirit of intolerance and judgment. I say it again, and no excuse me this time: to hell with it! May they burn in hell for their false religion and worship of an idol doped Allah.

 

Galatian:

"Christianity says God can save anyone, even non-Christians."

GE:

True 'Christianity' says nothing of the kind!

 

Yes and that would NOT include babies, so this thread is NOT about babies.

Babies are not saved - they are "protected" and will go to Heaven.

As DHK said, start another thread if this is what you want to talk about. This one has been derailed enough.

There is no way that Muslims, the RCC, or anyone else can be saved without trusting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Allah or Buddha just won't cut it.

The religions that are praising Allah are rejecting the fact that Jesus died on the cross for us, therefore, they are not saved, AND, if they DO get saved, they will turn their back on their false religions.

Saved Muslim is an oxymoron...

It amazes me that this thread has gone on so long because God is quite clear in His Word that there is only one way to get to Heaven!

Wake up people! Hello???

 

Islam has some very distinctive differences from both Christianity AND Judaism AND ALL OTHER religions at a fundamental level.

#1. NO Religion has taken the holy text of ANOTHER religion CHANGED it and then delcared the ALTERED version to be the original!!

#2. NO religion based on the actual Bible has totally abandoned archaeology and textual criticism the way Islam rejects the historic texts for the Bible.

#3. NO Author of the Bible Jew OR Christian had the character and misdeeds, and totally confused doctrinal positions of Mohammed while authoring the text.

#4. NO author of The Bible - Jew OR Christian promoted the "convert or die" methods of historic and modern Islam.

#5. We have NO example today of Jews OR Christians silencing their OWN opposition to rabid sects within them that advocate violence the WAY that modern Islam is bound and gagged when it comes to speaking out against the cultic misdeeds of ITS OWN members and sects.

#6. The saying among Islamic groups "My hand against my brother, me and my brother against my neighbor, me and my neighbor against the world" is a fundamental doctrine of "unity based on common hatred". It is THE reason that Iraq bombed Israel while they were being attacked in the Gulf War. The myth that dominates in Islam is "in hate we unite in peace we divide" which is why they so desperately want to attack the U.S and provoke an attack back against some Islamic target. They firmly believe that "divided Islam" (which is what we have today) will unite under the banner of hate if they can just get the right foes to ATTACK some Islamic state. They are driven by a "faith in hate" to stir up their brethren to hate.

This is very curious - because in their view a tiny country that commits some great injustice against a giant foe and incurs reprisal SHOULD be viewed as "Islam being attacked" rather than "stinking cultic sect inside Islam getting what it deserves".

But having said that - I do have a challenge for the thread.

Coming up.

In Christ,

Bob

 

What is the view of the participants of this thread regarding Jews?

John the baptizer Saved?
David "saved"?
Abraham "Saved"?

Timothy "saved" while a child or growing up or before he met Paul?

Did all Jews 'become lost' as soon as Christ rose from the dead?

If not - then you admit that non-Christians are saved.

In Christ,

Bob

 

That is an awful thing to say, but I am not going to reply in kind. So I hope and trust you won't burn in hell for it.

No, it is not true that Muslims pray to Mohammed or anything absurd like that. He was just a prophet. Did OT Jews pray to Isaiah? Similarly, Muslims do not believe that Muhammad is a mediator between man and God.

Really I am ashamed of all of us for knowing so little and castigating so much, and even condemning people to hell in our ignorance! We have created a total straw man, someone to hate and eventually I am sure one day to kill and be killed by if we don't change our views to reflect Christ's love for those folks. Human nature is no different than it ever was.

 

Bob - The N.T. question that intrigues me most is that of Cornelius. Here we have a centurian, and so an idolator by necessity, and really by definition. Nonetheless his prayers and alms came up for a memorial before God... while he was still a pagan! He was at one point a saved idolator, it sounds to me! It was God who led him to Christ as a reward for his righteousness?

And what about the non-Jews in the Old Testament who worshipped God? There are quite a few in there.

And as far as Islam's methods of violence being unique, I think it would be truly difficult to find a religion that killed more people than Christianity over the years. If any one of us is saved it will be despite all the horrible godless things we do, not because we are somehow superior to anyone else. Does anyone here believe we are saved by works? Does anyone believe that idolatry is the unforgiveable sin?

 

No, I Am Blessed, babies are definitely part of the question. They have not had the opportunity to hear the gospel preached any more than the average Muslim or Hindu. If you just believe that they are somehow "blessed" and will go to heaven on that basis, there must surely be scripture for that! And frankly, I agree with the person who already pointed out that they are sinners by nature and could easily be condemned on that basis. If there is some special blessing on babies, then anyone in similar ignorance of the gospel must be similarly blessed. If not, it would be better for everyone/ anyone to die in infancy, would it not?

 

Amity: I did not say babies were "blessed". I said they were "protected".

We have beaten this dead horse for many years on here.

Instead of bringing it up again, why don't you go to the archives and read what has already been posted on the subject?

You have said nothing new. Everything you have said about babies has been said hundreds of times on this board and been explained.

Take the time to look up the answers instead of rehashing old threads...

 

Excellent answer, in my opinion.

I agree with you here, too. Note the passage implies that some DO recognize God in His creation, and turn to God in prayer. Those are the people I am speaking of.

But no, most people in the world have so little knowledge of or contact with Christianity that they have no concept of Christian belief. Sad, but true. Like Cornelius, they may turn to God in their hearts, but unlike Cornelius will never hear the gospel. I have known quite a few nominal Hindus who in their hearts were extremely monotheistic and prayed to God, not to the idols. They had no knowledge of Christianity at all, but somehow knew God. Even though I wasn't a believer at that time, I was convinced that their belief was evidence for the existence of God, and even tried to find out from them how they knew there was only one God. Their faith "preached" to me, IOW. "Natural" religion does occur, just like the Bible says it does, and these people with the law of God written in their hearts are a law unto themselves, just as the Bible says. This is not at all uncommon. God is perfectly able to reveal Christ to anyone on the globe, no matter how remote they may be from the gospel. Having the gospel is a blessing, and something we should be grateful for, but it is not necessary to salvation.

When Anne Sullivan was finally able to communicate with Helen Keller, her first priority was to preach Christ to her. Helen listened to all she had to say, and then allegedly said "It's Him! He has been here with me the whole time. Thank you for telling me His name."

Sorry I misquoted you, I am blessed.

edit to say: Although I have known some Hindus who were rather confused monotheistic believers (believing in God, but with no idea of redemption), the two women I was thinking of as I wrote this were actually Zoroastrians or "Parsees" as they are called in India.

 

On #1: Yes, Buddhism is an adapted form of Hinduism.

#5: i guess it just depends on which grouping within Islam you choose to view as "the REAL Islam." Many Christians throughout history have been pretty far out there, too.