Are Para-church Ministries Biblical?

Tom Butler is much more civil and courteous than I am or ever will be. Sometimes I wish I had his patience and temperment.

Your heart seems to be in the right place as far as wanting to spread the Gospel, by any means possible. And I will concede more study is needed on my part about the childish nonsense from the SBC in Missouri, and other places, including seminaries. However, do you think this rises to the level to justify local churches from withdrawing from membership? Every organization is run by flawed human beings. There is no excuse for the un-Christlike actions of these upper levels, and if it were in my power, I would fire everyone of them.

Does it do more damage to the work of the Lord to involve local churches in the disputes above? I suppose that is a judgement call.

For example, our local church has on many occasions gotten involved when a part of our county tries to vote in liquoir sales. This last election we finally lost. We have opposed an expansion of lotteries locally. Tom told you about our work in evangelism. We have a Wednesday night ministry for kids 6-14 from a trailor park who have had practically no home like, with parents either in jail, on drugs, rotating bed partners, and/or a combination thereof. We have some very talented women mostly who give these kids a couple of hours of normal life a week, share the Gospel, and show them what it means to be loved. My hat is off to them. They are amazing people.

I guess my points are one, all of this is done under the authority of the local church, and two, these are the types of things locally our church should be worried instead of politics of the SBC.

On a personal note, I have been extremely irritable of late, between getting ready to retire, and starting another job. Some of my posts have been not at my best, and should apologize.

 

I think anyone who knows about such behavior should confront them first. There is not one of us who is so perfect in our theology and attitude that we should not be corrected at times. I am reminded of the time a lady told me about a church that she and her husband were involved in and there were two almost identical problems of infidelity. One of the ladies was confronted and the other was not. The one who was not confronted was angry and the other went down the right road once confronted. Another would be the time a friend of mine was going through a divorce. His wife is a Christians and so is he but his wife decided to divorce him. I confronted her about it and she was hard. When I talked with the pastor about it he would not confront the couple. I felt that he along with the elders should have confronted both of them. Recently I moved and he came to visit me. After the sermon I asked him what he thought. Some of the first words out of his mouth were that he did not think he would be divorced today if they had that pastor. He has been back very few times to his home church and later decided to look for another church.

That is a judgment call. If a church or Christian organization that I am a part of is clearly doing wrong then I think it needs to be confronted on a personal level first. If it continues then it needs to involve more people. If the organization does not change then it needs to die or I need to leave.

If the confrontation is to make non-Christians conform to Christian standards then I see no point in that because they are not Christians. If the problems is a moral or ethical problem and it involves Christians who are unable to speak for themselves are are powerless then I think as Christians we need to say something. For example a few years ago I was pastoring a church and a lady from another church called me asking for my support. At first I thought that possibly I was talking to someone who was a troublemaker. When I met with her I found out that her concerns were very real. She was trying to gain support from churches and be a voice together. There was a local high school teacher who was requiring a book to be read by her students. It had a lot of vulgar language in the book. One of the ladies confronted the teacher personally and then later confronted the school superintendent. Later we were put on the school board meeting agenda. We were never given the chance to speak. We waited until the meeting was over at about midnight. One of the ladies asked about what I thought our next step should be. I suggested that she contacted a local TV station. She did and the TV station did an interview. The interview was broadcasted on the 6:00 PM news in a town of close to one million. Within one day the problem was solved. We chose to take action because it involved some of our youth.

It sounds like you are involved in a great church that is willing to do what is right. Doing right is not always very popular. If it were the prophets would have been appreciated. There are times when people hate us and times when people love us for correcting them. If someone hates reproof that is a good indicator of their heart.

Prov 12:1, "Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, But he who hates reproof is stupid."

I do not see standing for what is right as politics but rather as living my life as Christ is Lord and He is in charge.

Prov. 14:34, "Righteousness exalts a nation, But sin is a disgrace to any people."

In the one church I pastored when I confronted the deacons about the Mormon bishop I was shocked at the response. I went home and told my wife we were in the wrong church. We stayed and I confronted many problems one by one. During that time you would not believe the number of people who were wishing me the best and even some of them were not Christians who knew about the problems.

I see problems much like an alligator. If we do not deal with them and keep feeding them then they will eventually eat us.

Ever notice how many businesses and organizations are started by inexperienced young people and fail at the hands of the experienced older people? I think it is because of complacency and hanging onto what they have without doing what they had done when they were small and wanting to grow.

I appreciate your humility. Some of my posts have not been edifying and I apologize for those.

 

How are para-churches involved on Navy ships? Are you aware what a para-church is? Military bases have worship services.
100% of the churches in my town probably are not making disciples...but should be. This argument is like "since there are no men willing to step up and lead, we should go against Scripture and appoint a woman pastor"
I'm not leaving discipleship up to the local churches...Christ did.

 

That is where The Navigators began their work. Chaplain do their work among military personnel.

I was involved with one for seven years.

What is the name of their local church?

I hope that 100% are not because some of them are cults.

Jesus began with a local church? What was its name? Certainly nobody would disagree that Jesus made disciples. How many use Jesus as their model? How many churches send their members out two by two to share the gospel. How many do you know who visit cities going from house to house and take nothing with them?

 

I agree, you should apologize. Your conduct has been reprehensible.

This is another reminder to SN that he had posted this in a public forum, not in PM-form.

 

Why not take your spitting match in private, we can care less about it.

 

Thanks, because I have no idea how to deal with this person. In my mind, there is something wrong with someone who would revive a 2 month old thread to make an insult when the thread had nothing to do with them.

 

He sent me a PM. I choose not to answer him privately. Posting what he has said publicly factually refutes what he has said in private.

(By the way, if you could care less means you have the capacity to care more.)

 

To get back to the op, when someone is overseas, either on a ship, base, or deployed to an isolated area, when the opportunity for worship presents itself, I doubt members of the armed forces care whether or not it is a para, local, or any other type of ministry. They are just grateful it is there.

 

Like I said, we don't need to read your "dirty laundry". If SN sent you a PRIVATE message, reply PRIVATELY. It's immature to do what you are doing.

 

We are free in Christ. If something promotes Christ, and it is not forbidden (Para Church ministries are not), it is fine.

 

I quoted your own words which you had posted on a public forum -- not a PM.

 

I am proving his mendacity by showing that he has indeed said what he said on public forums -- not through PM's.

 

Try honesty and an apology for starters. Don't feign ignorance or play victim when you are the one at fault.

 

Their existance isn't condemned because they don't exist in scripture. Why can't the local church be expected to do it all? That is after all what Christ did establish as the ground and pillar of the truth.

 

Christ didn't establish "the local church". Christ establishes a ministry. If a para-church ministry is doing that work, then more power to them.

BTW, ever donated items to the Salvation Army? You're not donating the the Salvation Army church, you're donating to the Salvation Army charities, a para church organization run by the Salvation Army church.

 

AMEN! This is quickly becoming an irritant for most folks reading the board. Please keep your personal vendettas that are not Christian private. Thanks and I am praying for the participating parties.

 

The Church is what has been designated by God to carry on the work of the gospel. The great commission and ordinances were given to the church. Para church organizations not under church authority are not biblical no matter how little problem you have with them or how much good they do.

Salvation army is being run under the rule of their churches.

 

Off topic: It would be wonderful if both you and SN could resolve this feud. Each of you have knowledge that would be a real blessing to those here. :1_grouphug: